[americandream]

Micki

I would advice you to read Marx before commenting on his ideas. Marx advocated certain responses for a system in terminal crisis.

The fact that your libertarian consumers paradise will terminally self destruct at some point in time on a global scale with precisely the consequences we see today in America is a given. Unless you foolishly hold to the view that only consumerist America (and the West) is susceptible to to the selling of smoke and mirrors to its shopping masses.

What we see today in America will be played out again and again in China, India, Russia, Latin America and Africa until we have all been stripped of our illusions. Only then will the urge for revolutionary change arise spontaneously and fully realised.

To quote Lincoln:

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

[bodigami]

technocracy vrs democracy

[ForlornHope]

'Socialism to ease the pain of the post-peak oil era'
~Feudalism to ease the pain of the post-peak oil era~ There, fixed it for ya...
Cheers
Forlorn Hope

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ForlornHope', '
')~Feudalism to ease the pain of the post-peak oil era

[ForlornHope]

Hi Ludi. No, I never troll for anything. Period.
Who can say with any certainty what will occur post P.O.?
I was alluding to the false sense of security that our present system gives us, and the false sense of security that socialism gives one. I live in Canada, and outside of some Scandanavian countries, we're fairly well along the path of socialism than most.
That being said, from my reading, research, and very outdated university studies of feudalism/manorialism/et al, feudalism or some quasi/neo feudalism that may arrive in a later post peak world may suprisingly offer a level of security(hence some easing of pain) that although not glamourous, does provide a direct connect to the land whether through permaculture or some less enlightened form of agriculture. Most of our present day effort into our own survival is far removed from 'direct' involvement in actually surviving.
The pyramidical structure, obviously favors those closer to the pinnacle, yet there was security(and food) all the way down the scale to the serf who tilled the soil. Now, I'm not suggesting that feudalism is the be all to end all, but given the choice of a benevalent/enlightened strong-arm lording over a smaller functional unit/community, or the soup and bread line and 'internment/refugee' camps, I would personally opt for someone/something that I could give my all to and see direct tangible benefits.
Just my thoughts. We can discuss in more depth if you wish. Unfortunately I can't forcast that the future holds out very many favorable options for us, in the way of easing of pain.
Cheers
Forlorn(for the future) Hope(ful, that I'm near the top of that feudal heap)

[Mike Morin]

In another forum Richard Collier wrote:

> Capitalism in any form won't cut it -- it's like termites on a
> rotting log . . . they will eat and eat and eat, until there's
> nothing left and then they starve to death.

Your point about termites needs to be taken into consideration.

To think that the human species has been no superior in ecological intellect to the termite, increasingly throughout its tenure. reaching the zenith (or more accurately nadir) of the "selfish gene", as some call it, (more accurately described as the culture of selfishness) in its
manifestation through Capitalism, at the same time being the most successful (I argue that it was Western Technological Civilization raping virgin landscapes) and the most destructive form of human economic organization.

True socialism has not really been tried, although critics of "Communist"
regimes really have not studied the assiduous efforts made in many countries to stay true to their ideals of "scientific socialism" and not given credit where credit was due. I'm not going to write at length in defense of such experiments. My assessment of their "failure" is related to many factors. One was a relatively limited resource base as compared to the so-called "free world". A second reason, was that they were trying to build a new social/economic system from a dysfunctional one. A third reason for their "failure" was that their modus operandi (the history of the human race, and inter-specifically much if not most of the animal "kingdom") was violence. Once you are forced into such a trajectory and you adopt it as part of your strategy it is hard, if not impossible, to re-establish your mission without it. The same is true for Obama and his inheritance of colonialism, genocide, slavery, anti-Communism, and pro-Capitalist Economic Hegemony. (The same is true for the perceived or real need to walk out the door and turn the ignition on the biggest blunder that the human race ever made and its concomitant half-century to century of sprawl, the personal automobile. It is absolutely essential that the leader of the USA have a talk about the fossil fuel realities and the need to adjust lifestyles immediately (don't drive unless you absolutely have to)... and the need to commit to a 20 to 40 year plan to reduce the use of the personal automobile by 80%. This is very doable and will create so many jobs that we will have to dedicate tremendous organizational and educational resources to equitably engage the labor supply and meet the work demand).

A fourth reason for the "failure" of socialism has been the active undermining of socialist economies, be it with propaganda, active funding to politically destabilize, and/or direct military aggression, by the Capitalist hegemonic interests and their ignorant, greedy, decadent, brainwashed, and murderous colonialist minions.

An eye for an eye and the whole world is blind. The next leader (assuming so-called Taliban is an organization and not a culture) that takes a violent hit needs to scream the teachings of Jesus about "turning the other cheek" and "loving your 'enemies'".

But such a position by the hypocritical Christian Imperialist USA would not be believable.

Only the true Jesusian withdrawal from occupied lands accompanied by the commitment and reallocation of military "appropriations" to the appropriate causes of waging peace, (i.e. meeting human needs, ecological economic redevelopment based on the principles of inclusion, humanity, equity, quality of life, and sustainability).

Remember, too, that Islam is the faith of the oppressed.

Capitalism is very irrational in the ways and means that it allocates
resources. There is no free market, I guess that is the absurdist point of
the "free socialists". We will not work our way out of the impending tragedy of the human race with "invisible hands"...

Somehow, we must convey these truths to every person on this planet.

A Plan and Implement economy based on a humane mission and principles is the answer. A Speculation, Risk and Return Economy is fundamentally corrupt.

The role of markets is for trade. As long as the Social Darwinism of
Competitive Advantage suffocates the survival instincts and needs of
comparative advantage and the humane aspect of sharing, then we all will be the losers.

Obama is the most important person on this planet, because his trajectory is the most destructive, the most fundamentally wrong. Someone please get these messages to the youth.


In Peace, Friendship, Cooperation, and Solidarity,

Mike Morin
http://groups.google.com/group/world-un ... ooperation

[Grautr]

Hi,
if your not already a member of this group then I think it will be right up your street;

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/killer_ape-peak_oil/

[BigTex]

I like the Unabomber manifesto writing style as well.

Someday, some intelligent life form will look back on us (if they are intelligent enough to grasp the concept of the past and not otherwise too busy looking for food) and discover that too much surplus intelligence (combined with favorable tool making abilities) does nothing except enable overshoot on a dramatically larger scale than is otherwise normally observed in nature.

Our brain size will ultimately be an evolutionary dead end, since it seems to offer no durable competitive survival advantage, but is prone to destructive neuroses when asked to live within limits or in a sustainable manner (or even when asked to acknowledge such things).

Where there have been cultural adaptations toward sustainability at the tribal level to compensate for the survival impediments presented by the large human brain, other less enlightened tribes always comes along and trash the sustainable ones and steal their gold, pottery and women.

[Roy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Our brain size will ultimately be an evolutionary dead end, since it seems to offer no durable competitive survival advantage, but is prone to destructive neuroses when asked to live within limits or in a sustainable manner (or even when asked to acknowledge such things).

[americandream]

Bravo Mike. A laudable attempt at discerning the undercurrents of history. However, despite our own time constrained and subjective assessment of an objective process, history has its own momentum and follows discernable parameters. For example, a peaking crisis in land coincided, at the transition from the feudal era to capital, with a real asset based systems transmutation into one centred around intangible assets. Europe was the engine in that instance. Might not the next be of another order, human intellectual capital (community oriented) with a global orientation?. Open source may well be the first glimmerings.

[Maddog78]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')emember, too, that Islam is the faith of the oppressed.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')emember, too, that Islam is the faith of the oppressed.

[Mike Morin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')emember, too, that Islam is the faith of the oppressed.

[katkinkate]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')emember, too, that Islam is the faith of the oppressed.

[americandream]

I suspect that some equate atheism with Marxist thought hence its juxtaposition with oppression. Thats a whole nother area I've extensivley debated on here so I shall give it a miss. Economic denial is like climate denial. It's proof will ultimately be in its eating. But for those who wish to cultivate a healthy scepticism, atheism is often a good point of departure without necessarily having to agree with Marx.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('katkinkate', 'A')ll religion oppresses to some extent, at least as far as it prevents people from thinking for themselves and running their own lives. Atheism isn't a faith, it's a lack of belief in god/s, or a belief there is no god/s. Atheism = a faith the same way not stamp-collecting = a hobby.

[timmac]

Socialism as defined by Webster’s Dictionary. Main Entry: so·cial·ism - Function: noun
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

Communism as defined by Webster’s Dictionary. Main Entry: com·mu·nism - Function: noun
1 a: a theory advocating elimination of private property b: a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2 capitalized a: a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
b: a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production
c: a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably.

I will just stick with the American way, its the best way !

[Mike Morin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('timmac', 'I') will just stick with the American way, its the best way !

[Cloud9]

"A totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production ". Sounds like our current situation to me.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', '[')b]"A totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production ". Sounds like our current situation to me.