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The role of human delusion

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Are human beings hopelessly prey to delusion ?

yes
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No votes
no
4
No votes
don't know
1
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Total votes : 47

Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 18:38:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '(')...)


lol, it may be fun... but I'm not homosexual and don't like theatre/w-e. But why narcissist? Do you all have a problem with someone being happy and liberated? wtf is wrong with knowing ourselves and giving a little of hope, speaking from experience (in the art or science of mind, subjective experiences should be studied as significant) in this frustrated nihilism?!


AC called you a narcissist.

You called him a nihilist.

There you are.

Be happy and liberated. But don't presume to have better answers than the person next to you. That presumption will undermine your happiness and liberation.


hmm... w-e... :)
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby Angry_Chimp » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 18:47:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')it was a counterexample, I am the closest human to analyse so it was me as the counterexample. Do you have a problem with it? Do you have a problem with someone being liberated and happy and talking about it on anonymous forums (or anywhere)? The writing seemed to me that it implyed that all humanity was hopelessly traped on fear of death and other pathologies. Since it is not, then we agree (on that).


Well I would argue that "all" humanity IS “hopelessly trapped on fear of death and other pathologies”. Because a relative handful of people believe they are spiritually "liberated" doesn't mean humanity as a whole isn't heading down an unalterable path of destruction driven by their collective illusions brought on by the terror of existence.
What you write sounds somewhat familiar to me. When I was in my early 20’s I used to hang with this dude and we would smoke alot of weed and, whenever we could get our hands on it, trip on mushrooms. Now he was a hardcore hippy type and I was just a middle class white kid experimenting with drugs. He often spoke of liberation and spirituality, inner peace etc etc. While listening to him on a good [lots of shake] “shroom” trip I could actually “feel” what he was telling me. In the end it was just a self induced delusion. Not much different than those ear to ear smiling clowns that have “discovered” “the secret”. http://www.thesecret.tv/
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 19:17:58

I think it's possible to be aware of mortality, and the finality of death, and be pretty ok with it. I don't worry much about death, myself. I mainly worry about pain. A painful process of dying, rather than death itself, frightens me.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 21:32:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')it was a counterexample, I am the closest human to analyse so it was me as the counterexample. Do you have a problem with it? Do you have a problem with someone being liberated and happy and talking about it on anonymous forums (or anywhere)? The writing seemed to me that it implyed that all humanity was hopelessly traped on fear of death and other pathologies. Since it is not, then we agree (on that).


Well I would argue that "all" humanity IS “hopelessly trapped on fear of death and other pathologies”. Because a relative handful of people believe they are spiritually "liberated" doesn't mean humanity as a whole isn't heading down an unalterable path of destruction driven by their collective illusions brought on by the terror of existence.
What you write sounds somewhat familiar to me. When I was in my early 20’s I used to hang with this dude and we would smoke alot of weed and, whenever we could get our hands on it, trip on mushrooms. Now he was a hardcore hippy type and I was just a middle class white kid experimenting with drugs. He often spoke of liberation and spirituality, inner peace etc etc. While listening to him on a good [lots of shake] “shroom” trip I could actually “feel” what he was telling me. In the end it was just a self induced delusion. Not much different than those ear to ear smiling clowns that have “discovered” “the secret”. http://www.thesecret.tv/


so are you comparing drug-induced trips to meditation + ethics + wisdom (noble path)? That's a weak "argument" against spirituality in general. What made you so bitter and frustrated? Cann't you just breath and be content with the now?
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby BigTex » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 21:57:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'C')an't you just breathe and be content with the now?


What makes you think that Angry_Chimp isn't perfectly content being angry?
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby Angry_Chimp » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 22:02:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')it was a counterexample, I am the closest human to analyse so it was me as the counterexample. Do you have a problem with it? Do you have a problem with someone being liberated and happy and talking about it on anonymous forums (or anywhere)? The writing seemed to me that it implyed that all humanity was hopelessly traped on fear of death and other pathologies. Since it is not, then we agree (on that).


Well I would argue that "all" humanity IS “hopelessly trapped on fear of death and other pathologies”. Because a relative handful of people believe they are spiritually "liberated" doesn't mean humanity as a whole isn't heading down an unalterable path of destruction driven by their collective illusions brought on by the terror of existence.
What you write sounds somewhat familiar to me. When I was in my early 20’s I used to hang with this dude and we would smoke alot of weed and, whenever we could get our hands on it, trip on mushrooms. Now he was a hardcore hippy type and I was just a middle class white kid experimenting with drugs. He often spoke of liberation and spirituality, inner peace etc etc. While listening to him on a good [lots of shake] “shroom” trip I could actually “feel” what he was telling me. In the end it was just a self induced delusion. Not much different than those ear to ear smiling clowns that have “discovered” “the secret”. http://www.thesecret.tv/


Cann't you just breath and be content with the now?


Sure, I'll give it a try. Can you? What brings you here? Perfectly content with your life? Maybe you need to junk the keyboard and monitor if you really would like to achieve “true” enlightement.

==AC

Theravada buddhist monk at Bayon temple, Angkor, Cambodia. Theravada means the "teaching of the elders", a philosophy that says the enlightement is only possible by living as a monk.

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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 22:55:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'C')an't you just breathe and be content with the now?


What makes you think that Angry_Chimp isn't perfectly content being angry?


replace content with happy and it's a logical contradiction (wtf does content mean to you?!).
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby BigTex » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 23:04:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'w')tf does content mean to you?!.


Just letting people be themselves.

Try it.

When you go to the zoo, you don't tell the monkeys how much you know about Buddhism, do you?

And they don't share their secrets with you either.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 23:06:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '(')...)
Cann't you just breath and be content with the now?


Sure, I'll give it a try. Can you?


yes.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '
') What brings you here? Perfectly content with your life? Maybe you need to junk the keyboard and monitor if you really would like to achieve “true” enlightement.

==AC


Buddhism doesn't need to be incompatible with contemporary life. The Net has being my main and virtually only Buddhist library, I've bookmarks of the Sutta Pittaka with read tags... hey, this method even saves trees (and since 90% of the electricity I use is clean and renewable, this to me is preferable than killing trees to read the Sutta Pitaka)! :)


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '
')Theravada buddhist monk at Bayon temple, Angkor, Cambodia. Theravada means the "teaching of the elders", a philosophy that says the enlightement is only possible by living as a monk.
(...)


I'm Buddhist but not a Theravada, although I agree with some of this School as oposed to Mahayana:
> meditation should be done for 45+ minutes to be effective (some mahayanists say about 15 minutes sits)
> a bodhisatva has to become a buddha before teaching the Dharma.
I think Theravada doesn't accept the Middle Path.

I'm still considering the possibility of becoming a full-time monk, but there are no monasteries that I'm aware of in Costa Rica (there are 1 tibetan and 1 zen sanghas, but no monasteries). But also think that "no work no food", so it may be a part-time monk and a part-time networking proffesional growing part of my own food.

and why you didn't reply to this:
so are you comparing drug-induced trips to meditation + ethics + wisdom (noble path)? That's a weak "argument" against spirituality in general. What made you so bitter and frustrated?
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 23:16:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'w')tf does content mean to you?!.


Just letting people be themselves.

Try it.

When you go to the zoo, you don't tell the monkeys how much you know about Buddhism, do you?

And they don't share their secrets with you either.


from the New Oxford Dictionary (Dictionary Mac app):
content: adjective: in a state of peaceful happiness.

This is a public forum, I'm not saying how much I know about Buddhism to convert random others. I'm arguing against nihilistic, frustrated, angry and hateful (not all on this thread) posts with how I understand mind and using my knowledge of Buddhism. Do you see the qualitative difference on this? Or are you being arguing with dishonesty by being aware about it but not basing your reply on this knowledge?

Buddhists don't "try to convert people and shove Buddhism through others' throats", that is (at least to me), offensive. But to reply on an open discussion about how humans ("as species") are traped on suffering with no way out, using Buddhism as base to reply is ethical and honest.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby BigTex » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 23:23:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'T')his is a public forum, I'm not saying how much I know about Buddhism to convert random others. I'm arguing against nihilistic, frustrated, angry and hateful (not all on this thread) posts with how I understand mind and using my knowledge of Buddhism. Do you see the qualitative difference on this? Or are you being arguing with dishonesty by being aware about it but not basing your reply on this knowledge?

Buddhists don't "try to convert people and shove Buddhism through others' throats", that is (at least to me), offensive. But to reply on an open discussion about how humans ("as species") are traped on suffering with no way out, using Buddhism as base to reply is ethical and honest.


When you argue you only reinforce the beliefs of the person you are arguing with.

The belief that your way is superior is problematic. This is what causes the arguing.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby btu2012 » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 23:47:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')ell, I tried. I guess if I can't speak his language, he doesn't want to talk with me at all. :( That's ok.

He doesn't want to get off his pedestal, would make him vulnerable. On the other hand you can't stand posturing so there you have it. :) That's why you are less deluded than others -- you have almost no narcissistic defense. :wink:
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 23:56:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'T')his is a public forum, I'm not saying how much I know about Buddhism to convert random others. I'm arguing against nihilistic, frustrated, angry and hateful (not all on this thread) posts with how I understand mind and using my knowledge of Buddhism. Do you see the qualitative difference on this? Or are you being arguing with dishonesty by being aware about it but not basing your reply on this knowledge?

Buddhists don't "try to convert people and shove Buddhism through others' throats", that is (at least to me), offensive. But to reply on an open discussion about how humans ("as species") are traped on suffering with no way out, using Buddhism as base to reply is ethical and honest.


When you argue you only reinforce the beliefs of the person you are arguing with.

The belief that your way is superior is problematic. This is what causes the arguing.


You don't understand the basis of discussion. I don't have believes, I've a perception of reality. But it can be changed if no longer valid. ie: I was christian, now I'm buddhist, maybe tomorrow I won't even label my world view. This is not about superiority, it's about a free flowing with cooperation or competition between memes, as a path of eliminating suffering through better understanding of reality (understanding the irrelevance of some endeavours, like nihilism, frustration, anger, hate that produces suffering).
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby BigTex » Tue 29 Apr 2008, 00:28:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', 'Y')ou don't understand the basis of discussion.


How do you know?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't have believes, I've a perception of reality.


That's a belief cowboy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut it can be changed if no longer valid. ie: I was christian, now I'm buddhist, maybe tomorrow I won't even label my world view.


Tomorrow I may wear a hat.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is not about superiority, it's about a free flowing with cooperation or competition between memes, as a path of eliminating suffering through better understanding of reality (understanding the irrelevance of some endeavours, like nihilism, frustration, anger, hate that produces suffering).


zensui, my friend, you are walking your own plank. When you talk about certain expressions being irrelevant, you are deluding yourself.

And you know this!
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby jasonraymondson » Tue 29 Apr 2008, 00:42:59

I am a semi-practicing dudeist. I say semi-practicing, because well... Hey look a birdy....

http://www.dudeism.com/
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby BigTex » Tue 29 Apr 2008, 00:48:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jasonraymondson', 'I') am a semi-practicing dudeist. I say semi-practicing, because well... Hey look a birdy....

http://www.dudeism.com/


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hough The Dude’s philosophy runs deeper than that, it is simply not his habit to impose his assertions upon the world, nor the lifestyles people have chosen, least of all his own. He neither judges the corrupt old man nor takes umbrage at his condescension. As he will say later, in response to a tongue-lashing offered by a purple-clad pedophilic bowler, “Well, that’s just, ya know, like, your opinion, man.”
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby jasonraymondson » Tue 29 Apr 2008, 00:56:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t is important to note, however, that one must not make the common error of mistaking dudes for hippies. Hippies are merely naive bands of sentimentalists who smoke too much ganja. Backpacking dudes, on the other hand, are independent, well-informed, and cynical enough to know that people and things aren’t intrinsically all good. Many of them also smoke too much ganja, but that’s another story. It might be said that dudes are realists who rebel against excess idealism, whereas hippies are idealists who rebel against excess reality. Thus the Dude mandate is the same as Voltaire’s, Samuel Johnson’s and Thoreau’s: Tend to your own little garden and mend your neighbor’s fence. Hippies, on the other hand, think the entire world is a boundless garden, and then get disappointed when people shoot at them for trespassing. This would be a great time to bring up Adam and Eve, but Dudeists don’t believe that shit ever happened.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby Angry_Chimp » Tue 29 Apr 2008, 07:16:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')and why you didn't reply to this:
so are you comparing drug-induced trips to meditation + ethics + wisdom (noble path)? That's a weak "argument" against spirituality in general. What made you so bitter and frustrated?


"The man who comes back through the Door in the Wall will never be quite the same as the man who went out. He will be wiser but less sure, happier but less self-satisfied, humbler in acknowledging his ignorance yet better equipped to understand the relationship of words to things, of systematic reasoning to the unfathomable mystery which it tries, forever vainly, to comprehend."
~Huxley

No problem. I AM comparing self induced illusions of grandeur [nirvana] to drug-induced trips. Aldous Huxley wrote "The Doors of Perception” after taking mescaline. He too was looking for enlightenment. Now I am not saying someone sitting on his couch drugging himself into oblivion is acquiring wisdom; that is a different journey.

Your stance that those that are not on your current self induced “trip” just don’t understand the argument seems extremely narcissistic to me. You are at the center of your own world view and people need to come around to see things as you see them just to even to begin to “understand”. Since you have told me quite a few times the type of personal trip you are on it seems you would like to win some “converts”. I mean who wouldn’t? Did you ever wonder why you tell people in life or in this forum something so private and personal? If you were to have your peak experiences and not tell anybody at all about it would it have any “meaning”?

In the end aren’t we mostly here with others like ourselves screaming about the fall of civilization, something that seems so unreal, to reaffirm belief in ourselves? Isn’t that why we will talk to perfect strangers and attempt to take their blissful ignorance away?

If you don’t mind me asking what led you to begin the journey you are now on?


“Neurosis is the contriving of private obsessional ritual to replace the socially-agreed one now lost by the demise of traditional society. The customs and myths of traditional society provided a whole interpretation of the meaning of life, ready-made for the individual; all he had to do was to accept living it as true. The modern neurotic must do just this if he is to be "cured": he must welcome a living illusion.

“It is one thing to imagine this "cure," but it is quite another thing to "prescribe" it to modern man. How hollow it must ring in his ears. For one thing, he can't get living myth-ritual complexes, the deep-going inherited social traditions that have so far sustained men, on a prescription form from the corner pharmacy. He can't even get them in mental hospitals or therapeutic communities. The modern neurotic cannot magically find the kind of world he needs, which is one reason he tries to create his own.

I think this helps explain the intensive evangelism of so many converts. Offhand we may wonder why they must continually buttonhole us in the street to tell us how to be as happy as they. If they are so happy, we muse, why are they bugging us? The reason, according to what we have said, must be that they need the conviction of numbers in order to strengthen and externalize something that otherwise remains very private and personal—and so risks seeming fantastic and unreal. To see others like oneself is to believe in oneself.”
~Becker

==AC
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby bodigami » Tue 29 Apr 2008, 14:54:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '(')...)
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is not about superiority, it's about a free flowing with cooperation or competition between memes, as a path of eliminating suffering through better understanding of reality (understanding the irrelevance of some endeavours, like nihilism, frustration, anger, hate that produces suffering).


zensui, my friend, you are walking your own plank. When you talk about certain expressions being irrelevant, you are deluding yourself.

And you know this!


what expressions?! o_0
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Re: The role of human delusion

Unread postby bodigami » Tue 29 Apr 2008, 15:13:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '(')...)
Your stance that those that are not on your current self induced “trip” just don’t understand the argument seems extremely narcissistic to me.


What argument are you talking about? As I've said many times, lately when I post about Buddhism is to discuss spirituality against bitter frustration. You're still refering to meditation as a (drug) trip, it's not. And about not understanding, I've actually talked clearly about meditation and spirituality and you still quote the same nihilism. I'm almost sure you understand, but are still to focused on anger... or something, I just want to comprehend what makes some of you to be so frustrated.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', 'Y')ou are at the center of your own world view and people need to come around to see things as you see them just to even to begin to “understand”.


Not really. My desires are irrelevant, arrogance is a chain to suffering. I'm trying to discuss between peers. I don't know how to say it more clearly (free discussion of memes, cross-pollination, ...).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '
')Since you have told me quite a few times the type of personal trip you are on it seems you would like to win some “converts”. I mean who wouldn’t? Did you ever wonder why you tell people in life or in this forum something so private and personal? If you were to have your peak experiences and not tell anybody at all about it would it have any “meaning”?


I talk about this to anyone, specially in real life, because it's a way of introducing myself... I'm transparent and honest with who I'm now. But only few are open to even hearing this. And I already said that I don't want "converts", and that it's almost offensive to hear this.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '
')In the end aren’t we mostly here with others like ourselves screaming about the fall of civilization, something that seems so unreal, to reaffirm belief in ourselves? Isn’t that why we will talk to perfect strangers and attempt to take their blissful ignorance away?


again, this comes from desperation and frustration, which I don't have. It's fine that an over-populated species that consumes too much experiences a die-off, it's karma.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '
')If you don’t mind me asking what led you to begin the journey you are now on?

I was suffering. Also, since at least 14 years old I've had mystic experiences, it was only natural that later, after investigating religions, I became Buddhist. If I already have this type of experiences, it's better to be less ignorant of reality, mind, and so on, because it can get weird and difficult to live.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '
')“Neurosis is the contriving of private obsessional ritual to replace the socially-agreed one now lost by the demise of traditional society. The customs and myths of traditional society provided a whole interpretation of the meaning of life, ready-made for the individual; all he had to do was to accept living it as true. The modern neurotic must do just this if he is to be "cured": he must welcome a living illusion.

“It is one thing to imagine this "cure," but it is quite another thing to "prescribe" it to modern man. How hollow it must ring in his ears. For one thing, he can't get living myth-ritual complexes, the deep-going inherited social traditions that have so far sustained men, on a prescription form from the corner pharmacy. He can't even get them in mental hospitals or therapeutic communities. The modern neurotic cannot magically find the kind of world he needs, which is one reason he tries to create his own.

I think this helps explain the intensive evangelism of so many converts. Offhand we may wonder why they must continually buttonhole us in the street to tell us how to be as happy as they. If they are so happy, we muse, why are they bugging us? The reason, according to what we have said, must be that they need the conviction of numbers in order to strengthen and externalize something that otherwise remains very private and personal—and so risks seeming fantastic and unreal. To see others like oneself is to believe in oneself.”
~Becker

==AC

another nihilistic quote?
one of the chains to suffering, in Buddhism, is attachment to rites and rituals, another one is anxiety.

Your nihilistic rants are not relevant in Buddhism, because they don't apply. A nihilistic is someone that lives in suffering without changing mind, a Buddhist changes mind so that suffering ends.
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