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The role of human delusion

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Are human beings hopelessly prey to delusion ?

yes
42
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no
4
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don't know
1
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Total votes : 47

Re: The role of human delusion

Postby btu2012 » Sun 27 Apr 2008, 21:13:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', 'I') think that his message is more about him than about our world, that's why I don't want to say any more. :)
Ok, thank you. Sorry about getting so frustrated. I read you saying "I know something, but I'm not going to tell you." This is the exact same response I have gotten when I've asked metaphysicists to provide some help in understanding an idea/symbol/etc. I felt you were brushing me off. I get unreasonably angry when I ask a question and am given an evasive answer, especially if it's done repeatedly. Eventually it causes me to give up asking questions altogether for a period. I can't take the stress. :(

I understand. There was no implication about you. I am just concerned about my not being so arrogant as to "explain" someone. What I would have to say about G's posts would be "personal" and it wouldn't be OK for me to say that. I am afraid that I already said too much.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby bodigami » Sun 27 Apr 2008, 21:29:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'z')ensui, what country are you in?

That's a pretty oppressive place if they are banning 1980s Tina Turner videos.


Costa Rica, which doesn't have banning in the Internet or software patents (lol, also it's not illegal to resist with force an arrest of the police). The ban comes from youtube.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby Ludi » Sun 27 Apr 2008, 21:44:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') only hold mirrors to others on this site...
And to learn more about me ... from the reactions of ewe. You just can't expect to sit down beside the pilot and say I wanna fly today. I would say...what manuals have you read? Most of ewe would reply I read 'kill the messenger'.Feel free to come to my blog...and ask me questions there...ewe will see others appreciate what I offer...

Ok. Does this mean you won't answer questions here? It seems like you don't want to answer questions, as you generally respond with abuse.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') only hang out here to see what the average Joe thinks and feels and how to develop a language that builds bridges...believe it or not...

Do you feel you are developing a language that builds bridges? It's difficult for me to see any actual communication going on between you and other people here.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')emember I have no idea what all of ewe believe in...I am blind...it is not like I am at a Christian revival meeting knowing what the thread of belief is...think about it....

If you were interested in the people here, you would know that many of us have posted about our beliefs to a greater or lesser degree.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')or starters Ludi want a required reading list? That's what it takes to follow along. Can't just sit down and be co-pilot.

No, thanks. I'll let you summarize it for me.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')esides which ... when was the last time someone expressed an epiphany really really well...?

Never. It is well known that such things can't be easily expressed to others, sometimes not even to oneself (verbally). So I wonder why you get so abusive toward people when they don't understand you and you won't answer their questions? It seems to me that you are usually not trying to communicate with people here, I see no genuine caring, warmth, or human feeling, no sympathy nor empathy from you toward others here.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'p').s. I have come to realize if you follow your intuition ... and not the sheeple people ... you will be rewarded. For me that is the lesson.
I agree.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ']')Maybe somehow the ewe will come to realize ... they shouldn't be so quick to marginlize others ... that might be a good lesson for the herd of ewe ... :roll:
People are actually pretty tolerant here, compared to other places I've seen.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby worrier » Sun 27 Apr 2008, 21:59:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'd')ifficult to love when you have contempt for the sheeple...

Do you have contempt for the "sheeple"? You keep on calling people ewe in your posts. It kind of gives a message of contempt.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') only hang out here to see what the average Joe thinks and feels and how to develop a language that builds bridges...believe it or not...

Calling people ewe and sheeple doesn't build bridges. I think anyone who is enlightened, or seeking enlightenment, or is a prophet would have caring and sympathy for their fellow humans, even for those humans who are far from enlightenment.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby Angry_Chimp » Sun 27 Apr 2008, 22:27:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', 'I')t seems that humans have a propensity for delusion, perhaps as a defense mechanism. Does delusion maximize survival ? Does delusion make us stupid ? Does it make us evil ? How much of the world we live in is a result of collective delusion ? Peak oilers, have a go at it.

Check out:
Flight From Death link
From: The Ernest Becker [1924 - 1974] Reader, Selected, Edited, and Introduced by Daniel Liechty, The Ernest Becker Foundation in association with The University of Washington Press, Seattle and London, Pb, c2005.

'Introduction: Ernest Becker has long been something of an enigma in the world of scholarship. His academic career endured for less than 15 years. For all but the final few years of that career, Becker led a rather nomadic academic life, existing on short-term contracts, often not knowing when one year ended where he would be for the coming year. Even as article after article and book after book appeared, he was continually denied contract renewal and any pathway to the academic tenure track. When finally he was offered a position that included some security, it was in a rather contentious and experimental interdisciplinary program that eventually spun apart. In any case, cancer soon intervened to cut Becker's career short at the young age of 49 years. The absorbing question Ernest Becker pursued in all of his research and writing was simply, WHAT MAKES PEOPLE ACT THE WAY THEY DO? Although Becker certainly did receive some significant accolades, even these were not unambiguous. When in 1967, for example, students at the University of California at Berkeley [I (LS) was a student there, 1956] heard that Becker's contract as a visiting lecturer would not be renewed by the administration, they voted to pay Becker's salary out of student funds in order to retain him, being the first and only time this gesture of student support has been given. Unfortunately, the administration understood this gesture as an attempt by students to intervene in the hiring and firing process and the offer was roundly rejected. This strong gesture of student support for Becker's teaching did nothing to endear him to the college administration. Similarly, as he was dying, Becker's book, The Denial of Death (1973), was awarded a Pulitzer Prize for Nonfiction. While this award would certainly be more than a feather in the cap of any writer, in the academic world in which Becker worked, a Pulitzer Prize was generally viewed as a 'literary' award for writing, rather than an academic or scientific award in recognition of a major contribution to an academic field....' ["11"].
"The gist of Becker's mature theory was best outlined by public philosopher Sam Keen, in his introductory preface to the 1997 printing of The Denial of Death. Keen summarized Becker's theory as containing four main strands of emphasis.

[1] THE WORLD IS A TERRIFYING PLACE. Here it is important to recognize that Becker purposely situated his views as a corrective to overly optimistic versions of evolutionary philosophies, in which increasing human perfection is our natural destiny. Becker pled humble ignorance on human destiny; we simply cannot know what aims the cosmic Life Force may have. But viewing our situation on this planet with jaundiced empiricism, we do know that we are inextricably bound up in a systemic food chain in which living organisms sustain themselves only by ingesting, digesting and creating fertilizer of other living organisms. For all but a very few of its organisms, this must be seen a nightmarish system of constant terror. Even for our own species, recent anthropological literature suggests that the transition from prey to predator took place only very recently in our evolutionary history. Accordingly, we may assume that the rumblings of a prey animal's terror, as well as the exaggerated human fascination with power and weaponry that facilitated this recent transition from prey to predator, remain very present in the collective unconscious of our species. The undeniable awe and wonder in nature's beauty aside, Becker insisted that there is a real terror in the most basic structures of this world, terror that is echoed in the deepest recesses of our being. Even as we repeat our cultural narratives of conquest and comfort, we cannot mistake these narratives for empirical reality itself. We employ an array of culturally constructed 'necessary FICTIONS' to aid us in the repression of our real anxiety of death and vulnerability, giving us as individuals and as societies a sense of purpose and forward movement. Yet because such narratives are bound to conflict across cultures and this will have real consequences, including overt violence between people, we must keep on our mental horizons the narrative nature of our transcending Truths.

[2] THE BASIC MOTIVATION FOR HUMAN BEHAVIOR IS THE NEED TO CONTROL OUR BASIC ANXIETY, TO DENY THE TERROR OF DEATH. The most basic anxiety is not sexual urgency or aggressiveness. It is the anxious terror produced in an animal that has attained self-awareness and knows that it will die. Though in his own time, Becker's theories were not widely accepted by specialists, hypotheses derived from these theories (called 'Terror Management Theory' in the specialized literature) have been proving amazingly resilient under rigorous empirical testing.

[3] SINCE THE TERROR OF DEATH IS SO OVERWHELMING WE CONSPIRE TO KEEP IT UNCONSCIOUS. Death awareness and the anxiety it produces is not simply uncomfortable. It does not simply make us uneasy. It is so overwhelmingly threatening to the human psyche that it positively has to be repressed. The entire range of psychological defenses must be employed to keep this basic anxiety masked and disguised, and this need to repress death anxiety from consciousness may well have been, in fact, the stimulus at the origin of these psychological defense mechanisms. Individual and social character emerge from a dynamic unconscious, which must expend an enormous amount of energy in this positive repression of the terror of death from conscious awareness. The very definition of a successful culture is that it offers satisfactory, convincing and viable avenues for achieving triumphant sublimation of this basic anxiety in the form of cultural 'heroics. The heroic drive is the varied and culturally-contoured drive to excellence, by which individuals 'make their mark,' prove their larger worth and value, and thereby earn self-esteem and SYMBOLIC IMMORTALITY.

[4] OUR HEROIC PROJECTS, AIMED AT DESTROYING EVIL, HAVE THE PARADOXICAL EFFECT OF BRINGING MORE EVIL INTO THE WORLD. Because it remains unconscious and repressed, human beings will displace and scapegoat the terror of death almost willy-nilly. We are able to focus on almost any perceived threat, whether of people, political or economic ideology, race, religion, and blow it up psychologically into a life and death struggle against ultimate evil. In doing so, we lose the very faculties that allow us to place limits on the violence we are willing to employ against this perceived threat. This dynamic of spiraling violence, more than anything else, remains the underside of human social interaction at all levels, from personal interactions, to group interactions, to interactions between nation states.

BECKER'S THEORY OF HUMAN BEHAVIORAL MOTIVATION IS NOT easily OPTIMISTIC; if the ultimate human struggle is ultimately an unconscious fight against mortality itself, and therefore doomed to repeated defeat, it is hard to see how the spirals of violence can ever be eliminated from our behavior. On the other hand, if we are able to recognize the true nature of our struggles against evil, this may assist us in demythologizing the real threats posed by 'evil empires' and other perceived enemies, thus yielding at least some handle of rationality for setting controls and prior limits on our violence." [15-16].

"AS INDIVIDUALS, WE ARE FINITE, MORTAL, WEAK ANIMALS. GIVEN THE CHOICE BETWEEN ACCEPTING THIS REALITY OR GIVING ONESELF OVER TO ILLUSIONS OF GREATNESS AND IMPORTANCE WHICH A LEADER IMPARTS TO FOLLOWERS.

THE MASS OF HUMAN BEINGS WILL CHOOSE ILLUSION OVER REALITY, LIES OVER TRUTH, FICTION OVER FACT."
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby BigTex » Sun 27 Apr 2008, 22:32:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'z')ensui, what country are you in?

That's a pretty oppressive place if they are banning 1980s Tina Turner videos.


Costa Rica, which doesn't have banning in the Internet or software patents (lol, also it's not illegal to resist with force an arrest of the police). The ban comes from youtube.


Wait a second zensui, are you hispanic, or latino or whatever the correct term is?

I pictured you looking like a young Bruce Lee.

Now I'm picturing you looking like a young Julio Iglesias.

Which is closer?

Image

OR

Image

If you are not from Costa Rica, what brought you there?
:)
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby BigTex » Sun 27 Apr 2008, 22:40:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', 'I')t seems that humans have a propensity for delusion, perhaps as a defense mechanism.

Does delusion maximize survival ?

Does delusion make us stupid ?

Does it make us evil ?

How much of the world we live in is a result of collective delusion ?

Peak oilers, have a go at it.

Btu


Check out:

Flight From Death

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=J65DR589N ... re=related

From: The Ernest Becker [1924 - 1974] Reader, Selected, Edited, and Introduced by Daniel Liechty, The Ernest Becker Foundation in association with The University of Washington Press, Seattle and London, Pb, c2005.

"AS INDIVIDUALS, WE ARE FINITE, MORTAL, WEAK ANIMALS. GIVEN THE CHOICE BETWEEN ACCEPTING THIS REALITY OR GIVING ONESELF OVER TO ILLUSIONS OF GREATNESS AND IMPORTANCE WHICH A LEADER IMPARTS TO FOLLOWERS.

THE MASS OF HUMAN BEINGS WILL CHOOSE ILLUSION OVER REALITY, LIES OVER TRUTH, FICTION OVER FACT."


Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting.
:)
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 01:23:34

Angry_Chimp, one can accept the reality of his/her own death and be much happier because of this. This is from experience, I've come to terms with my own mortality, being content with all possible after death outcomes (including cessation of consciosness). :)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'z')ensui, what country are you in?

That's a pretty oppressive place if they are banning 1980s Tina Turner videos.


Costa Rica, which doesn't have banning in the Internet or software patents (lol, also it's not illegal to resist with force an arrest of the police). The ban comes from youtube.


Wait a second zensui, are you hispanic, or latino or whatever the correct term is?

I pictured you looking like a young Bruce Lee.

Now I'm picturing you looking like a young Julio Iglesias.

Which is closer?
(...)
If you are not from Costa Rica, what brought you there?


Oh no, Julio Iglesias is lame... if I'm similar to one of those 2 it is Bruce Lee, but only in (the never retreat) spirit.

I guess this will make peakoil.com the online community I've shared more personal information. Don't guess about my appearence, here is my favorite recent photo:
http://anagami.net/img/fotos/21/028r.jpg

and public self-portrait photos:
http://pacchimayana.hi5.com
Last edited by bodigami on Mon 28 Apr 2008, 01:37:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 01:29:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'W')ould you share a delusion you were under in the past but from which you awoke?

Sure. Family is a delusion. The first cult we must break free from is family. The ewe must first become the black sheep... Then and only then will the ewe find the first gate of many through which to pass.
The majority of people thinking you are wrong as you seek the truth helps too... :roll: namaste

actually I agree with this. I do feel compassion for my family, but now I can see/read each individual member as he/she actually is. Family is part of the conforting delusion of false protection. That familiar relationships are our longest doesn't mean they are, just because, the most valuable.
I have a healthy mistrust for humans by default, including my family. lol, now that I think of it, I don't trust humans and call them "friends"... the humans I mistrust less I call "friends". :lol: That's why I use "ally" for humans that I really trust. :)
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 01:45:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', ' ')you are truly the teacher. Nothing you say makes sense but you are like a candy machine. If I put money in your mouth then you spew wisdom.(...)

to be fair, about 1% of what he says make sense. The rest is cheap entertainment (if you have the time). Mostly he is like someone that is drunk but not to much, basically harmless entertainment. :lol:
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby btu2012 » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 04:10:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')es I have contempt...never ever said I love any of ewe....I am working real hard on finding compassion for the contemptuous souls...that I will consider a moral victory. wankers, I am simply overwhelmed...

As I said, anger and fear. :cry:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hen and only then will the ewe find the first gate of many through which to pass.

It is dangerous to pass through too many gates. Stop attacking the "ewes" just because you are envious of their "dumb" capacity to be happy. Those who need to awaken will seek, you don't have to force anyone. Especially since you are so helpless yourself. What will you offer them instead ? You just want them to suffer as you do (or did).
Last edited by btu2012 on Mon 28 Apr 2008, 04:38:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby btu2012 » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 04:36:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', 'T')HE MASS OF HUMAN BEINGS WILL CHOOSE ILLUSION OVER REALITY, LIES OVER TRUTH, FICTION OVER FACT."


Thanks angry chimp. I agree with much of what he says, but there is another way.

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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby Angry_Chimp » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 06:29:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ngry_Chimp, one can accept the reality of his/her own death and be much happier because of this. This is from experience, I've come to terms with my own mortality, being content with all possible after death outcomes (including cessation of consciosness). :)


zensui the one thing you can't seem to shake is your narcissism. ;-) Becker is not saying it is impossible for an individual, such as you zensui, to come to grips with the repressed terror of death. He is just saying for the vast majority of people the fear of death will drive them to illusion. It is a group phenomenon. The illusion the group creates is called culture. NOT EVERYBODY ZENSUI BUT THE VAST MAJORITY. Again because you have spent vast amounts of time analyzing your own ego and have found ways to unrepress most fears you may have had what does that mean about the rest of humanity? It doesn’t mean Becker main thesis is wrong. Go meditate and get over yourself.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby Angry_Chimp » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 06:31:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', 'T')HE MASS OF HUMAN BEINGS WILL CHOOSE ILLUSION OVER REALITY, LIES OVER TRUTH, FICTION OVER FACT."


Thanks angry chimp. I agree with much of what he says, but there is another way.

Btu


What might that be?
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby BigTex » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 13:07:15

Angry_Chimp and zensui could star together in an "Odd Couple" style post-PO sitcom.

They could call it:

"The Nihilist and the Narcissist."

***

"zensui, when are you going to learn, not even this shirt matters."

Image
:)
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby Ludi » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 14:40:51

Well, I tried. I guess if I can't speak his language, he doesn't want to talk with me at all. :( That's ok.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 18:20:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Angry_Chimp', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ngry_Chimp, one can accept the reality of his/her own death and be much happier because of this. This is from experience, I've come to terms with my own mortality, being content with all possible after death outcomes (including cessation of consciosness). :)


zensui the one thing you can't seem to shake is your narcissism. ;-) Becker is not saying it is impossible for an individual, such as you zensui, to come to grips with the repressed terror of death. He is just saying for the vast majority of people the fear of death will drive them to illusion. It is a group phenomenon. The illusion the group creates is called culture. NOT EVERYBODY ZENSUI BUT THE VAST MAJORITY. Again because you have spent vast amounts of time analyzing your own ego and have found ways to unrepress most fears you may have had what does that mean about the rest of humanity? It doesn’t mean Becker main thesis is wrong. Go meditate and get over yourself.


it was a counterexample, I am the closest human to analyse so it was me as the counterexample. Do you have a problem with it? Do you have a problem with someone being liberated and happy and talking about it on anonymous forums (or anywhere)? The writing seemed to me that it implyed that all humanity was hopelessly traped on fear of death and other pathologies. Since it is not that hopeless, then we agree (on that).
Last edited by bodigami on Mon 28 Apr 2008, 18:33:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby bodigami » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 18:26:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'A')ngry_Chimp and zensui could star together in an "Odd Couple" style post-PO sitcom.

They could call it:

"The Nihilist and the Narcissist."

***

"zensui, when are you going to learn, not even this shirt matters."
(...)


lol, it may be fun... but I'm not homosexual and don't like theatre/w-e. But why narcissist? Do you all have a problem with someone being happy and liberated? wtf is wrong with knowing ourselves and giving a little of hope, speaking from experience (in the art or science of mind, subjective experiences should be studied as significant) in this frustrated nihilism?!
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Re: The role of human delusion

Postby BigTex » Mon 28 Apr 2008, 18:31:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zensui', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'A')ngry_Chimp and zensui could star together in an "Odd Couple" style post-PO sitcom.

They could call it:

"The Nihilist and the Narcissist."

***

"zensui, when are you going to learn, not even this shirt matters."
(...)


lol, it may be fun... but I'm not homosexual and don't like theatre/w-e. But why narcissist? Do you all have a problem with someone being happy and liberated? wtf is wrong with knowing ourselves and giving a little of hope, speaking from experience (in the art or science of mind, subjective experiences should be studied as significant) in this frustrated nihilism?!


AC called you a narcissist.

You called him a nihilist.

There you are.

Be happy and liberated. But don't presume to have better answers than the person next to you. That presumption will undermine your happiness and liberation.
:)
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