[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LoneSnark', '.')..But PO by itself does not negate someone’s ability to pay; all it does mean is that when they do pay that money will afford less oil.

[Andrew_S]

Money doesn't make the world go round; energy does.

[LoneSnark]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e have a "growth" based economy

[Duende]

Whoa, I feel like someone just did a cannonball off the highdive '8O'

LoneSnark, I don't even know where to start. I recommend reading some of the older posts on this website to familiarize yourself with many of the concepts discussed before boldly setting everyone straight. Having said that, passionate discussion is welcomed.

First, it's useful to understand that economic practice is a subset of physical law; dollars and cents ultimately answer to gravity and thermodynamics. Second, human society is a subset of ecology; our patterns of consumption answer to nature.

[roccman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LoneSnark', 'I') don't suppose just telling you that you are mistaken would do any good, would it?

[LoneSnark]

Hi Duende.

I have read all the arguments for peak oil before. Regretfully, I am schooled as an Engineer with Economics as a furvent hobby. There is a strong element of catch phrasology in Peak Oil. When you say that "dollars and cents ultimately answer to gravity and thermodynamics," it sounds like you are being profound. But cents and dollars are just stand-ins for value, an intangible human concept. Concepts are not physical, so your statement is not really saying anything at all.

Similarly, who is this 'nature' that you seem to believe we answer to? From an engineering perspective mankind is not living off nature. In some instances, nature is living off us. You see, we have bred and genetically altered plants to be more efficient. Most grain crops now manage around 3 percent efficiency (turning sunlight into chemical stores). Not to mention reorganizing the Earth to spread irrigation and nutrients where they will be most effective. These crops of ours replaced natural fauna which often managed only about 0.1 percent efficiency.

The universe is not a zero sum game. There is a lot of energy in the universe and by human standards nearly all of it is wasted. We are making nature more efficient and then harnessing the overage.

Yes, oil is nice to have. But running low does not change our place in the Universe as efficiency boosters.

[Revi]

We live off the oil. Yes, there is a lot of energy hitting this place in the form of sunlight, and it's useful as heck, but we have been living off of the black goo instead for a long time.

Most people are too dumb to understand how to use the sun.

They will die. Sun people will live. Lots of weird stuff will happen in the meantime.

[RdSnt]

You're arrogance is stunning, if not surprising.
"We are making nature more efficient.." That's quite laughable but again not particularly surprising. It could be true, provided your perspective is as narrow as a pinhead.
We are manipulating the energy around us to suit our needs for the moment. It has absolutely nothing to do with efficiency.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LoneSnark', 'H')i Duende.

I have read all the arguments for peak oil before. Regretfully, I am schooled as an Engineer with Economics as a furvent hobby. There is a strong element of catch phrasology in Peak Oil. When you say that "dollars and cents ultimately answer to gravity and thermodynamics," it sounds like you are being profound. But cents and dollars are just stand-ins for value, an intangible human concept. Concepts are not physical, so your statement is not really saying anything at all.

Similarly, who is this 'nature' that you seem to believe we answer to? From an engineering perspective mankind is not living off nature. In some instances, nature is living off us. You see, we have bred and genetically altered plants to be more efficient. Most grain crops now manage around 3 percent efficiency (turning sunlight into chemical stores). Not to mention reorganizing the Earth to spread irrigation and nutrients where they will be most effective. These crops of ours replaced natural fauna which often managed only about 0.1 percent efficiency.

The universe is not a zero sum game. There is a lot of energy in the universe and by human standards nearly all of it is wasted. We are making nature more efficient and then harnessing the overage.

Yes, oil is nice to have. But running low does not change our place in the Universe as efficiency boosters.

[Duende]

LoneSnark, allow me to indulge you.

LoneSnark wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen you say that "dollars and cents ultimately answer to gravity and thermodynamics," it sounds like you are being profound.

[IslandCrow]

Today I turned down the heating to 18C (61F) and put on some more clothes. I could turn the heat down because the wife was not here at the time...it will have to go backup for her before her return!

This was particularly in response to the interest rates (Euribor - which affects my bank loan) starting to rise again, rather than the oil situation. I know that it will not save me a lot of money, but I reckon that if things go bad then every little bit saved now will help. Also I want to see to what level I can power-down to and still remain comfortable [I know the current temperature is already below my wife's comfort level]

[MrBill]

IslandCrow I would not worry too much about rates as 3-month EURIBOR dropped about a tenth of a percent in OCT/NOV as money market traders start to factor in that the ECB will not likely raise rates anytime soon. That plus the strong euro should be moderating your heating bills. Still, if you can lower your costs, so much the better. Good luck! ; - )

[LoneSnark]

Duende, thank you for indulging me. This stuff is fun!
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')urs is a growth based economy.

[Duende]

Ok, well now we're getting somewhere.

LoneSnark wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his stuff is fun!

[LoneSnark]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow, you just said that our economy is not growth-dependent. I'm interested in hearing more - please extrapolate on that, because that would be big news.

[UncoveringTruths]

Lonesnark,

Would you explain how the economy will keep chugging along with an increasing decline rate year upon year? IMO it will become harder year upon year to hit the economic reset button once PO is realized.

Have you been to the Oil Drum and looked at the export land model? I am sure they would be happy to show you the numbers.
Net Oil Exports and the "Iron Triangle"

Have you debunked Hirsch, Simmons, etc? No sense in coming in here and debating with us cats until you have thrashed the proffesionals. Good luck with that!

PEAKING OF WORLD OIL PRODUCTION:

[LoneSnark]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ould you explain how the economy will keep chugging along with an increasing decline rate year upon year?

[Duende]

LoneSnark wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')erhaps I should ask you to explain the steps you believe Peak Oil will cause our downfall, then I can disprove your reasoning instead of throwing text at generalized concepts.

[LoneSnark]

Well, I guess we might as well wring it to a close. You can be concerned about whatever you want, I guess. But stop making up myths about "our total and utter dependence upon finite natural resources" when there is no dependence. We are not 'addicted' as as some politician once said. We would still have a technological civilization if there had never been any oil to discover. We already know everything we need to in order to continue to prosper without oil; yet even you admit we will still have oil for decades to come.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat alternatives? Please explain how you see that playing out.

[UncoveringTruths]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LoneSnark', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ould you explain how the economy will keep chugging along with an increasing decline rate year upon year?

[yeahbut]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('UncoveringTruths', 'R')espectfully you sound like an economics major straight out of the assembly line. Your posts lacks life experiences! V/R