[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lorenzo', '
')It is possible he won because Marxists organised a mass vote; they're much more organised than Hegelians, for instance.

[DomusAlbion]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'R')eally, you think so? Marx is the opiate of the intellectuals.

[Jake_old]

I've read das capital and although boring it makes perfect sense. His ideas on Capital are indeed very interesting, the value within an object is more than the material in it.

I not a communist BTW

[seldom_seen]

Marx had a few good insights...but I kind of feel sorry for the Marxists. They're always trying so damn hard to be taken seriously and people just laugh at them. Like this poll here, I'm sure they put this poll together. It's totally something they would do. Would we even have heard of this poll if Wittgenstein came out on top? ...I think not.

[threadbear]

Red Jake, Same.
Am not for centralized Communist control but...Marx was also given a second look by a number of Western economists about 4 or 5 years ago, as reported in the New York times. They were blown away at the accuracy of his predictions about consolidation of capital, therefore power, under a very few, at the top. Marx was brilliant. Too bad the forms of Communism that flowed from his understanding of power and money, became a mirror image of what he was condemning.

Scandinavia probably comes closest to something Marx himself would approve of.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', 'M')arx had a few good insights...but I kind of feel sorry for the Marxists. They're always trying so damn hard to be taken seriously and people just laugh at them. Like this poll here, I'm sure they put this poll together. It's totally something they would do. Would we even have heard of this poll if Wittgenstein came out on top? ...I think not.

[Teclo]

Maybe he won because he had the biggest beard!

A lot of people are like Marx, got a good idea, logical, rational. But then in practise it all goes out the window

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Teclo', 'M')aybe he won because he had the biggest beard!

A lot of people are like Marx, got a good idea, logical, rational. But then in practise it all goes out the window

[Jake_old]

Yes, i agree threadbear if Joe sixpack read it, then they would act, but after the overthrow of the current regime what would they install, another regime.

So teklo you are also right, once a new regime is in place it is still a centralisation of power and as the saying goes; the more things change the more they stay the same.

So the enemy of the ordinary person is always centralised power

I'd like to know who these western economists are who took another look, that must have slipped me by.

[lateStarter]

I don't think there was anything wrong with the actual concept of communism. It was the (mis)application of the principles by greedy, power hungry meglomaniacs that gave it a bad smell.

That is why I believe in the short term, we are all doomed. No matter what great idea or concept rises to the surface to save mankind, some greedy, bastard will exploit it for his own purposes.

Eventually, even after the die-off, we will repeat the same cycle of exploitation (If there are enough left to give it a go).

[Jake_old]

I also agree to some extent with you latestarter, Marx also held the cyclical view of history but with a belief that as time went by, conditions got better for the ordinary person.

Its hard to tell if he was simply mislead by missing the possible fact that usage of energy was the cause of continuing improvement of social conditions.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedJake', 'Y')es, i agree threadbear if Joe sixpack read it, then they would act, but after the overthrow of the current regime what would they install, another regime.

So teklo you are also right, once a new regime is in place it is still a centralisation of power and as the saying goes; the more things change the more they stay the same.

So the enemy of the ordinary person is always centralised power

I'd like to know who these western economists are who took another look, that must have slipped me by.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Best to become a Jehovah's witness. The lambs apparently lie down with the lions. I saw it in the Watchtower.

[lateStarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RedJake', 'Y')es, i agree threadbear if Joe sixpack read it, then they would act, but after the overthrow of the current regime what would they install, another regime.

So teklo you are also right, once a new regime is in place it is still a centralisation of power and as the saying goes; the more things change the more they stay the same.

So the enemy of the ordinary person is always centralised power

I'd like to know who these western economists are who took another look, that must have slipped me by.

[TheTurtle]

WHO participated in this poll?

Because I'm pretty certain that if I were to wander about here in the great midwest and randomly assemble twenty different groups of people, not more than 1 in 10 people could even list five philosophers, let alone compare, contrast and assess the respective philosophies of 20 of them.
Twenty?!? LOL!

Heck, I'd be willing to bet that I could randomly canvas most major midwestern college campuses and not come up with more than a 30% success rate of even recognizing the names of 20 different philosophers, let alone an understanding of the major tenets of each of their beliefs.

Karl Marx ... wasn't he the youngest Marx brother?
David Hume ... isn't he that Fox news talking head guy on Sunday mornings?
Plato? You mean Mickey's dog?
Wittgenstein? Vitkenwhoosit?

Pass me another Bud (tm), dude!

[threadbear]

JW's are great. I had some friends who were witnesses and I actually listened to what they had to say for a very long time. Didn't even argue. I actually don't consider them any more ridiculous than anyone else. My own private brand of ridiculousness just appears to be more compelling, is all. It's actually pretty courageous to go door to door with your beliefs. I wonder PMS how people would respond if we did that.

"Hi, my name's Threadbare. I'd like to talk to you about the consensual illusion we're trapped in. It's self reinforcing in nature, but there are reality enforcement agents that shore up the dominant paradigm from time to time , when it starts to wear thin and threatens to break down. I'd like to help you break free from this Gnostic Hell and am here to offer you a chance to sample salvation, if you'd like to sit down and talk about it for awhile."

"Uhhh...What church do you belong to? Do you have any literature?"

Then I'd give them something by Philip K Dick.

Wonder if they'd have you in to discuss it further. Maybe I'll try it.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'J')W's are great. I had some friends who were witnesses and I actually listened to what they had to say for a very long time. Didn't even argue. I actually don't consider them any more ridiculous than anyone else. My own private brand of ridiculousness just appears to be more compelling, is all. It's actually pretty courageous to go door to door with your beliefs. I wonder PMS how people would respond if we did that.

"Hi, my name's Threadbare. I'd like to talk to you about the consensual illusion we're trapped in. It's self reinforcing in nature, but there are reality enforcement agents that shore up the dominant paradigm from time to time , when it starts to wear thin and threatens to break down. I'd like to help you break free from this Gnostic Hell and am here to offer you a chance to sample salvation, if you'd like to sit down and talk about it for awhile."

"Uhhh...What church do you belong to? Do you have any literature?"

Then I'd give them something by Philip K Dick.

Wonder if they'd have you in to discuss it further. Maybe I'll try it.

[Jake_old]

Thats very funny I don't know many who would know more than 5 philosophers also.

I hate to think what would happen if I went door to door like that, and said what i thought. I never thought of it like that. It take balls.

I'd get stoned to death probably, 10 doors or so down the road.

[bart]

No matter what your political orientation, Marx is essential. Don't believe what people say about Marx -- discover him for yourself.

Sociologists, economists, political movements of all stripes have been influenced by Marx. Even conservatives and right-wingers. (One reason the neo-cons have been so effective is that they count a number of ex-Trotskyites among their ranks.)

Marxism has been in decline since the 70s, but I suspect it will experience one of its periodic rebirths, as the effects of Peak Oil kick in (unemployment, depressions, wars for resources).

If you're interested in learning more about Marx, I'd start out with good general books from relatively neutral sources.

One classic is "To the Finland Station" by the literary critic Edmund Wilson. He has understandable explanations of Marxist ideas, plus a few chapters on the early anarchists, for those of you so inclined. Also some chapters on Trotsky and Lenin. It's hard to make sense of the 20th century without the background that Wilson provides.

I've found that small left wing parties are a bad place to learn about Marx. They tend to be dogmatic and (to my mind) intellectually dead.

Also, I'd avoid books that set out to "disprove" Marx; they're tendentious and have a superficial understanding of Marx. The best criticism of Marx come from the heavyweight philosophers and economists with a healthy respect for him.

A good source of current Marxist thinking is "Monthly Review," an independent and non-sectarian socialist journal. High quality and not too dogmatic. Einstein was an early subscriber. http://www.monthlyreview.org/index.html
They just started a webzine: http://www.monthlyreview.org/mrzine/ .

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'J')W's are great. I had some friends who were witnesses and I actually listened to what they had to say for a very long time. Didn't even argue. I actually don't consider them any more ridiculous than anyone else. My own private brand of ridiculousness just appears to be more compelling, is all. It's actually pretty courageous to go door to door with your beliefs. I wonder PMS how people would respond if we did that.

"Hi, my name's Threadbare. I'd like to talk to you about the consensual illusion we're trapped in. It's self reinforcing in nature, but there are reality enforcement agents that shore up the dominant paradigm from time to time , when it starts to wear thin and threatens to break down. I'd like to help you break free from this Gnostic Hell and am here to offer you a chance to sample salvation, if you'd like to sit down and talk about it for awhile."

"Uhhh...What church do you belong to? Do you have any literature?"

Then I'd give them something by Philip K Dick.

Wonder if they'd have you in to discuss it further. Maybe I'll try it.