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The Gloom Spreads North

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL
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Re: Hey, I thought Harper said Canada had no economic proble

Unread postby Snowrunner » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 14:15:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', 'L')OL, let's hope your business is in a sector that will be one of the first ones nationalized.


Highly doubtful, but we'll see.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')eriously though, you don't feel motivated to work harder to make you business a success because you will see the fruits of that labour?


I feel motivated to have a comfortable life. I do not feel motivated to put my business over my enjoyment of life.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f your business is nationalized and you get a fixed salary and benefits set by the gov't you don't think that would affect your motivation to work hard and run the business in a most efficient manner?


You want to know something funny? I have contracted with the Government (both here and in Europe) and with large Corporations. I have seen both. Corporations are worse, the amount of money, time etc. that gets wasted has put me off from ever wanting to work for a large Coporate Entity again.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou don't think that you wouldn't just turn into a clock puncher?


Seriously, have you been in any large Corporation? I have worked (in Canada) for the likes of Bell, Rogers and Telus (and a few others in between) both as an employee and as a contractor, as well as a few provincial Governments (or at least had exposure to them) and in all these cases the worst slackers, wasters etc. were in the Corporate World.

But to be utterly clear, I am not a fan of either a Corporate Run State nor of Communism, I am for something in the middle, hence why MY choice would be for a Government to "punish" the big guys and use that money to encourage smaller companies. The first thing would be to get the 400 million back they gave the car manufacturer and use them as seed money for alternative industries in Ontario.
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Re: The Gloom Spreads North

Unread postby Maddog78 » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 17:19:14

Yeah, I have to agree with you on the large corporation thing.
Plenty of dog fuckers in those companies.

I deal mostly with small to medium cos. and those guys hustle.



btw, I thought this was a little harsh.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd you're obviously a hardcore ingoramus who was spoonfed an ideology and never bothered turning on your brain to think about it.



Where did you see me insulting people?
I got all the spoon fed ideology I needed when the Liberals destroyed my business with their NEP in the 80's.
I'm not a keyboard commando, seen too much of that shit.
Come by the clubhouse when you're in BC and I'll buy you a beer.
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Re: The Gloom Spreads North

Unread postby Snowrunner » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 17:34:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', 'Y')eah, I have to agree with you on the large corporation thing.
Plenty of dog Fark in those companies.

I deal mostly with small to medium cos. and those guys hustle.


Sure they do. Because they have their asses right above the pavement and I am all for supporting small and medium sized businesses, but those aren't the ones that call the shots as you well know as well.

Yeah, I am "pro-Government", but that would be a Government that works for it's people (and that includes small and medium sized businesses), at least we CAN control them via elections and at worst case a revolution. Corporations, not so much. If they all die a horrible death tomorrow I really wouldn't care. We can rebuild, I consider the worst threat to individual prosperty these days not the Government but Multinationals of any size, and no they aren't evil, they do what they are supposed to do: Make as much money as they can.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'b')tw, I thought this was a little harsh.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd you're obviously a hardcore ingoramus who was spoonfed an ideology and never bothered turning on your brain to think about it.


Where did you see me insulting people?


I am getting a bit "sensitive" over the "debate tone" that quickly enters these discussions and you entered that as well, so I admit, I went into the fastlane and tried to beat you to the punch.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') got all the spoon fed ideology I needed when the Liberals destroyed my business with their NEP in the 80's.


As Mr. Bill will most likely not tire to point out, I wasn't around in Canada back then, but I have looked at it. I read about it and talked to people about it while I lived in Edmonton and my conclusion is that it wasn't the NEP that did you guys in: The the guys in the Middleeast who opened up the pipelines again and depressed the oil price. There simply was NO way to make a profit in the sands at this point in time.

No oil company that would have seen a profit in the area would have left, they would have found a way around it, challenged it in court etc. But they didn't, why? Because it was a convenient excuse and up to this day Albertan's hold it up as a valid reason to pile hate on the Liberals and Ottawa.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m not a keyboard commando, seen too much of that crap.
Come by the clubhouse when you're in BC and I'll buy you a beer.

Haha, I am in Vancouver if you are in the area and want to grab one, PM me and we can set something up :)
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Re: The Gloom Spreads North

Unread postby Maddog78 » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 18:01:19

The Middle East opened the taps in late 85.
The NEP came in in 80.
It's true we would have been depressed in 86 too but the NEP caused it to happen a good 5 or 6 yrs. early with no time to make adjustments and if it would have happened in 86 we would have been in recovery just 1 1/2-2 yrs. later instead of 8 yrs. later.
My business was in the drilling side, nothing to do with tar sands.

I find it very telling that Marc Lalonde (Trudeau's energy minister)has admitted in recent interviews since that the NEP had nothing to do with energy policy, it was all about taking economic power away from Alberta. That certainly isn't what he was saying at the time.
It's estimated the NEP cost Alberta around $50 to $100 billion from 80 to 86.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program

That's a big reason why I'm in BC now. The Liberals have a hard on for Alberta when they have a few good yrs. and will do whatever they can to crush the place, i.e. Green Shaft.
Everything is too volatile in Alberta when the "normal" governing party wants to hammer you.
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Re: The Gloom Spreads North

Unread postby deMolay » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 18:56:01

Within a week of the NEP being announced, the drilling rigs were racking and leaving Alberta. Many Albertans lost their life savings and homes because of the rat bastard Trudeau and the NEP. The NEP pulled about 200B in 1980 dollars right out of Alberta's economy. Many people committed suicide. I have many friends and family in the patch.
"We Are All Travellers, From The Sweet Grass To The Packing House, From Birth To Death, We Wander Between The Two Eternities". An Old Cowboy.
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Re: The Gloom Spreads North

Unread postby pablonite » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 20:23:07

Hey all you fellow Canuckistanians, it seems some people here are muddying the waters with their various theories about the economy.

Take a step back and look at the big picture, Canada had its central bank and government infiltrated and taken over by the private international bankers around 1974 and has been racking up a huge debt with big interest rates ever since.

Don't believe it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yYEFuN2v08

The data in the video is easy to check, the scam is simple and we will never at this point be able to pay down the debt in any significant way.

Canadians need to understand why their politicans, even if honest, are now completely out of the control loop on our monetary system as is the Bank of Canada. The only solution is to keep printing more money to pay the interest along with more taxes and service cuts. The fractional reserve system can float this system for a long time but the longer the scam goes on the bigger the contraction in the end.

Oh, and when you realize the massive profits to be had by the private banks in the form of foreclosed land titles in a severe contraction its time we the people wake up and recognize who the criminals are, and just how irrelevant our political puppets have become.


"The very idea of a government that can create money for itself allowing banks to create money that the government then borrows and pays interest on is so preposterous that it staggers the imagination." -- William F. Hixson
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Re: The Gloom Spreads North

Unread postby Snowrunner » Sat 11 Oct 2008, 21:54:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Maddog78', 'T')he Middle East opened the taps in late 85.
The NEP came in in 80.
It's true we would have been depressed in 86 too but the NEP caused it to happen a good 5 or 6 yrs. early with no time to make adjustments and if it would have happened in 86 we would have been in recovery just 1 1/2-2 yrs. later instead of 8 yrs. later.
My business was in the drilling side, nothing to do with tar sands.


I was mainly refering to the tarsands as as far as Northern Alberta (and the Bridge to nowhere) goes it seems to be the main gripe.

BTw, this table is interesting too, sure in '86 it really went down, but the correction was already happening before then:

http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/ ... _Table.asp

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') find it very telling that Marc Lalonde (Trudeau's energy minister)has admitted in recent interviews since that the NEP had nothing to do with energy policy, it was all about taking economic power away from Alberta. That certainly isn't what he was saying at the time.


Do you have a link to one of these interviews? My reading happened in the early 2000s shortly after I landed in Canada, the story read a wee bit different then.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's estimated the NEP cost Alberta around $50 to $100 billion from 80 to 86.


I've seen the "end result" of that in Edmonton, some parts of the city seemed to have been frozen in time, it was a bit of an eerie sight.

As for the "loss", do really think that if it would have made economic sense to the oil companies to produce they wouldn't have stuck around / fought the Government in court over this?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'h')ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program


Yeah I read that, it was a bit thin last time I checked, but I'll check it again.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat's a big reason why I'm in BC now. The Liberals have a hard on for Alberta when they have a few good yrs. and will do whatever they can to crush the place, i.e. Green Shaft.

See, on the one hand I admire Albertans "FU" attitude towards pretty much everything, at least they know what they are doing, the BCer in contrast seem to live in a bit of denial about their lifestyles.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')verything is too volatile in Alberta when the "normal" governing party wants to hammer you.

True enough, though some of the AB stubborness isn't healthy either. My impression with Alberta and Albertans was that the further south you go the more "Cowboy" people become, the more outside of the cities you go, the more people are wondering about what the Province is turning into.

I think AB will be an interesting place to watch for the next 20 or so years.

As for my move to BC? I just realized I am not a Prairie boy, the flatness and browness (for 9 months out of the year unless covered by snow) really got to me.

EDIT:

Going through the Wikipedia I came across this little "nugget":

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')remier Peter Lougheed's planned actions against the federal government and central Canada included cutting oil production.

http://www.abheritage.ca/abpolitics/eve ... s_nep.html

Unfortunately this is rather short on substance, but does anybody know / have a link on how far he got and how serious the foreign oil companies took this?

I just have a hard time that a foreign company producing oil in Canada would just roll over and play dead considering how far they are willing to go in places like Africa to get the black gold.
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