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THE Enron Thread (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 27 May 2007, 23:12:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ') "facts"? Why sir, that's an ad hominem attack on my intelligence.


Good lord.

Maybe you should look up the meaning of an ad hominem?
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 27 May 2007, 23:14:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', ' ')Just to be certain. Are you declining to provide the link because you can't or you won't?


Do you know what asked and answered ad naseum means?

Guess you just failed to read the links I provided several times, here and on another thread where the same discussion is going on.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby threadbear » Sun 27 May 2007, 23:28:17

Zentric. I'll translate for you.

Monte just said "Nyah, nyah, nyah....I doOOoon't HAVE to."

Oh how the mighy have fallen :lol:
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 27 May 2007, 23:42:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'M')onte just said "Nyah, nyah, nyah....I doOOoon't HAVE to."


No, I said I already did provide the links...several times.

And if you don't like my links, do a google search. You will find the explanations for our current refinery problem consistently explained, from energybulletin.net to oildrum, to the Wall Street Journal.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby threadbear » Sun 27 May 2007, 23:50:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'M')onte just said "Nyah, nyah, nyah....I doOOoon't HAVE to."


No, I said I already did provide the links...several times.

And if you don't like my links, do a google search. You will find the explanations for our current refinery problem consistently explained, from energybulletin.net to oildrum, to the Wall Street Journal.


Wall Street Journal--Now there's another unbiased source. :lol: AsiaTimes Online is more objective. They have covered peak oil probably more than any other paper out there. Not to say I'd accept anything their contributors came up with, but they are a much higher quality--More refined.

Strawman alert!--Noone is claiming that refineries aren't having difficulties. Did I say that? Uh uh. How does the fact that they are having real difficulties obviate the fact that they gouge at the same time?
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 00:06:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')Wall Street Journal--Now there's another unbiased source. :lol:


Ad hominem attacks are not permitted on peakoil.com forums.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne intent defined by our conduct policies tries to limit "off-topic" posts as much as possible so that the threads stay informative and clear. Flaming and ad hominem attacks are most definitely off-topic. While a certain amount of “off-topic” posting is tolerated, we try hard to manage the most excessive cases for the benefit of the whole forum.


You are becoming an "excessive" case.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 01:07:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')Wall Street Journal--Now there's another unbiased source. :lol:


Ad hominem attacks are not permitted on peakoil.com forums.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne intent defined by our conduct policies tries to limit "off-topic" posts as much as possible so that the threads stay informative and clear. Flaming and ad hominem attacks are most definitely off-topic. While a certain amount of “off-topic” posting is tolerated, we try hard to manage the most excessive cases for the benefit of the whole forum.


You are becoming an "excessive" case.


How is pointing out that Wall Street Journal is biased an ad hominem attack? I can't criticize a newspaper on Peak Oil Forums? Since when?
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 01:23:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'H')ow is pointing out that Wall Street Journal is biased an ad hominem attack? I can't criticize a newspaper on Peak Oil Forums? Since when?


You are attacking the character of the messenger and avoiding the merits of the debate. You are attacking the WSJ's character rather than answering to the contentions made by them.


Sure, you can criticize the WSJ, but not as a response to a debate of the merits in this thread.

Refute the "facts" the WSJ prints.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 01:31:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')How does the fact that they are having real difficulties obviate the fact that they gouge at the same time?


There are no facts in evidence to support contentions that refineries are gouging.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 01:56:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'H')ow is pointing out that Wall Street Journal is biased an ad hominem attack? I can't criticize a newspaper on Peak Oil Forums? Since when?


You are attacking the character of the messenger and avoiding the merits of the debate. You are attacking the WSJ's character rather than answering to the contentions made by them.


Sure, you can criticize the WSJ, but not as a response to a debate of the merits in this thread.

Refute the "facts" the WSJ prints.


I think you should take this up with other moderators. I am not attacking anyone on this thread, I am questioning the sincerity of some of your sources, not you. There is a world of difference. The code of conduct is meant to adress insults to other posters. Please don't censor people unnecessarily.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:00:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')How does the fact that they are having real difficulties obviate the fact that they gouge at the same time?


There are no facts in evidence to support contentions that refineries are gouging.


I used the word "fact" incorrectly. I should have used the term "the well reasoned suspicion" that they are gouging. I remind you that technically speaking peak oil is considered a suspicion as well, though reason compels us to take it seriously.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:05:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')I think you should take this up with other moderators. I am not attacking anyone on this thread, I am questioning the sincerity of some of your sources, not you. There is a world of difference. The code of conduct is meant to adress insults to other posters. Please don't censor people unnecessarily.


No, it is meant to prohibit resorting to ad hominem attacks, period.

I know, I wrote the latest version of the Code of Conduct.

Avoiding the merits of the debate by questioning the character, motivation, etc of the source of facts is not permiited on this site.

You must debate the merits and the facts.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:07:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')I used the word "fact" incorrectly. I should have used the term "the well reasoned suspicion" that they are gouging.


There are no facts in evidence to support a "well reasoned suspicion" that refineries are gouging.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:12:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')I think you should take this up with other moderators. I am not attacking anyone on this thread, I am questioning the sincerity of some of your sources, not you. There is a world of difference. The code of conduct is meant to adress insults to other posters. Please don't censor people unnecessarily.


No, it is meant to prohibit resorting to ad hominem attacks, period.

I know, I wrote the latest version of the Code of Conduct.

Avoiding the merits of the debate by questioning the character, motivation, etc of the source of facts is not permiited on this site.

You must debate the merits and the facts.


Did you purchase Peak Oil Forums? You are honestly going to haul me on the carpet for questioning the motivation of the sources negating the question of oil price gouging provided by the industry itself? I'm asking you again to please take this up with the other moderators. It's completely absurd.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:17:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')Did you purchase Peak Oil Forums? You are honestly going to haul me on the carpet for questioning the motivation of the sources negating the question of oil price gouging provided by the industry itself?


That is called an ad hominem attack when you avoid debating the facts or the merits and resort to questioning the motives, yes.

Because it is a fact you won't debate the merits.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')I'm asking you again to please take this up with the other moderators. It's completely absurd.


Sorry, I wrote the rules the mods follow.

And I am not a moderator anymore.
Last edited by MonteQuest on Mon 28 May 2007, 02:20:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby Zentric » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:20:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')I used the word "fact" incorrectly. I should have used the term "the well reasoned suspicion" that they are gouging.


There are no facts in evidence to support a "well reasoned suspicion" that refineries are gouging.


Hi Monte -

Do you have any facts to support what you're saying?

And from what 'place' or 'location' do you feel we must go to find the sort of 'facts' that you might deem as acceptable evidence?

For example, will you accept facts sourced from the Internet. Or must said facts by accompanied by a sworn affidavit by the person or persons who aver such facts? I just want to know what standard for evidence is being imposed on us. :)
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:22:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')Did you purchase Peak Oil Forums? You are honestly going to haul me on the carpet for questioning the motivation of the sources negating the question of oil price gouging provided by the industry itself?


That is called an ad hominem attack when you avoid debating the facts or the merits and resort to questioning the motives, yes.

Because it is a fact you won't debate the merits.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')I'm asking you again to please take this up with the other moderators. It's completely absurd.


Sorry, I wrote the rules the mods follow.


Take it up with the mods please. It needs a rewrite. I'm not questioning your intentions I'm questioning the intentions of the oil industry and what could just as easily be propaganda as anything else. Ask your fellow mods if they agree and don't send me threatening PM's.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:23:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')I used the word "fact" incorrectly. I should have used the term "the well reasoned suspicion" that they are gouging.


There are no facts in evidence to support a "well reasoned suspicion" that refineries are gouging.


Hi Monte -

Do you have any facts to support what you're saying?


Yes, none have been presented. The FTC has conducted several investigations over the last 20 years and found nothing.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:26:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')Take it up with the mods please. It needs a rewrite. I'm not questioning your intentions I'm questioning the intentions of the oil industry and what could just as easily be propaganda as anything else. Ask your fellow mods if they agree and don't send me threatening PM's.


The moderator don't write the rules here. The site owner does.

I am no longer a moderator, but I do help run the site.

Ad hominem attacks will not be permitted as a debate tactic on peakoil.com, period.

End of discussion.
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Re: Enron and Big Oil- Compare and contrast

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 28 May 2007, 02:27:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zentric', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', ' ')I used the word "fact" incorrectly. I should have used the term "the well reasoned suspicion" that they are gouging.


There are no facts in evidence to support a "well reasoned suspicion" that refineries are gouging.


Hi Monte -

Do you have any facts to support what you're saying?


Yes, none have been presented. The FTC has conducted several investigations over the last 20 years and found nothing.


Is the FTC an impartial body?
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