[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BastardSquad', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Clouseau2', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('neocone', 'W')e all need meat but roughly the size of a pack of cards every day... less than 100 grams.

[Narz]

Nice Loki.

Meat will be alot harder to come by in times ahead that's for sure.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Clouseau2', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('neocone', 'W')e all need meat but roughly the size of a pack of cards every day... less than 100 grams.

[Bioman]

Intelligent children tend to become vegetarians later in life:

High IQ link to being vegetarian http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm

That's official now.

We only need to wait to see results of studies showing things the other way around: does becoming a vegetarian later in life, after having been a meat eater, make you smarter?

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bioman', 'I')ntelligent children tend to become vegetarians later in life:

High IQ link to being vegetarian http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm

That's official now.

We only need to wait to see results of studies showing things the other way around: does becoming a vegetarian later in life, after having been a meat eater, make you smarter?

[HEADER_RACK]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kingcoal', 'I')f you care about greenhouse gases, you should become a vegetarian.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ivestock are responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse-gas emissions as measured in carbon dioxide equivalent, reports the FAO. This includes 9 percent of all CO2 emissions, 37 percent of methane, and 65 percent of nitrous oxide. Altogether, that's more than the emissions caused by transportation.

[Rincewind]

Some points

Yes we have evolved to eat animal protein. However, to meet our dietary requirements we don't need to eat that much (compared to carbohydrates. There is strong evidence that eating too much [red] meat is bad for you (e.g. colon cancer).

There is also the question of what type of animal protein we are most evolved to make use of. There is strong evidence to indicate that arthropods were a staple source of protein. By this I mean various types of insects. I am not joking but perhaps we should be farming locusts and molloscs instead of cattle? It would probably be more energy efficient, less environmentally damaging, and produce a more healthy food source.

In general those of us living in the west eat too much food in total in any case.

You can live on a fully vegetarian diet but must find replacement sources of protein (e.g. usually sourced from beans).

The problem with farm emissions in the increased emisisons over what natural sources normally produce and what the biosphere can process. What we have done with farming especially modern farming is use fossil energy to increase livestock numbers to a point where the biosphere can no longer keep up. This results in the build up of methane and nitrous oxide in the troposphere - which in turn contributeds to an enhanced greenhouse effect.

Cheers Rincewind

[edpeak]

Humans evolved doing LOTS of unhealthy things,
back when they didn't worry about how healthy
their arteries will be when they are 75..but only
about how to get enough calories to survive,
hence the lactose tolerance mutation (lactose
intolenrance is what's actually normal) did help
humans, it helped them survive in less hospitable
places...helped them live past 10 years old ;-)
even though animal milk is unhealthy
and unnatural (or even human milk, past
age 4 or so ;-) and even though that and meat
is unhealthy long term...Eating raw fat from mammoth
probably helped some humans get enough calories
to survive in cold regions, too, no one argues with that..it's
just not the healthiest of diets long term, neither
them, nor now, to live to a long life, nor to live
to age healthy (which means not just your life's
health but your quality)

Also..

Are all vegans are pale and weak? Try this 9-time
gold medal winner:

http://earthsave.org/lifestyle/carllewis.htm

Of course sometimes people see vegans
who are not pale and who are strong but think
they look "too thin" but that's largely as we've
gotten used to a certain look at "Average" which is really
heavier than ideal healthiest weight.

And last but not least..another reason to cut out animal products

http://www.ejnet.org/dioxin/dioxin_chart.gif

more background here http://www.ejnet.org/dioxin/

EDpeak

Vegan for over ten years...see www.veganchef.com for
cool recipes :-)

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('edpeak', 'E')ating raw fat from mammoth
probably helped some humans get enough calories
to survive in cold regions, too, no one argues with that..it's
just not the healthiest of diets long term....

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', 'P')lease direct me towards the source claiming that any natives at any time in history lived on a vegan diet.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', 'P')lease direct me towards the source claiming that any natives at any time in history lived on a vegan diet.

[FourOfSwords]

Torjus' last post is valid. Those culture's who have over many generations eaten a higher proportion of meat/fat have become genetically predisposed to not having colon and corectal cancers. It has more to do with the TYPE of meat/fat that are being consumed, and the amount of fibre consumed, associated with the food they eat. He mentioned formerly(in most places)hunter/gatherer peoples such as the Innu,Innuit etc. These same folks when introduced to modern 'processed' foods do indeed exhibit the same diseases as most 'modern' folks of industrialized nations.
It has to do with the type of fat that is stored in animals muscle layers that we consume. Modern grain fed cattle et al, produce vast amounts of Omega 6 type fatty acids within their muscle mass.
Wild or free range animals produce a proportionallly higher ratio of Omega 3 fatty acids to Omega 6. Thus the health benefits.
Pharoahs mummified bodies from the New Kingdom have been forensically studied, and an interesting discovery was made, that since they were the 'elite' of there empire, they ate a much higer proportion of cattle...guess what, evidence of artereosclerosis, and colon cancer...the reason, grain fed cattle. An interesting side note.
Vegetarianism to a large degree today, is a 'luxury' (although that does sound silly) being that most of our ancestors no matter where they came from on this Earth, ate a higher proportion of veggies to grain/meat.
As for which is healthier, its really a moot point from a PO perspective, as I'm sure to a man/woman, every poster on these forums, if facing starvation will eat whatever they can get their hands on.
I think where the disconnect is in this discussion, is that as a general rule, North Americans eat far too much meat compared to other folks in the world, it has a horrible enviromental/PO pricetag associated in its production, and too much of it is just plain bad for you.( As some ancient Greek once said: 'All things in moderation')
Alas Torjus, its unlikely you or I or any significant number of people will be able to eat much wild healthy meat in a PO world...the prospects don't look good. I've eaten, deer, elk, moose, bear, most types of wild foul, and probably every type of fresswater fish here in Canada. I've done this in moderation, and with respect as my H/G ancestors did for millenia. I am 50 years old have no hardening of the arteries, no calcification of the brain, yet I have been 'done in' by eating to many grain based foods(I've recently been diagnosed as a type 2 diabetic). Grains are the real culprit behind poor health in the industrialized West, and how they have been overprocessed. Nothing wrong with veggies, and nothing wrong with 'healthy' meat in my books.
Cheers.
A.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FourOfSwords', 'A')las Torjus, its unlikely you or I or any significant number of people will be able to eat much wild healthy meat in a PO world...the prospects don't look good. I've eaten, deer, elk, moose, bear, most types of wild foul, and probably every type of fresswater fish here in Canada.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Torjus', '&')lt;snip>

[TorrKing]

If you live in Greenland, explain to me what other choice you have? Do you want to plant wheat?

The closer you get to the tropics, the higher the ratio of vegetables per meat. That is because the availability of plant foods are higher there compared to the availability of meat. Opposite the further north you get.

So what we are talking about is sustainability? In the long run, is there any other option than hunter-gatherer?

The hunter gatherer will deplete an area of game or other edibles and either move on or die (if there are no good alternatives). That leaves only superficial damage, which will heal in a relatively short time. The farmer lingers on until the soil is depleted pretty much beyond repair and then move on or die. Which is most sustainable?

It is possible to do sustainable small scale agriculture, but greed invariably takes over and produces cities which will make the farmers be unable to return the waste to the fields.

----

What tick me off is the ongoing nagging of "let's all become vegans". If we were moose, we could, but even the moose takes a nibble at a frog at times to get a protein boost.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'T')he healthiest, most long-lived people on the planet all live in agricultural societies. Look up the diet of the Okinawans, the Sardinians, and the Seventh-day Adventists in Loma Linda, California. None of them are hunting mastodons for their daily bread.

[Loki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'S')hould we eat like the Gwi of Botswana and get 74% of our calories from plant sources? Should we eat like the Eskimos of Greenland and get 96% of our calories from animal sources?

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'S')hould we eat like the Gwi of Botswana and get 74% of our calories from plant sources? Should we eat like the Eskimos of Greenland and get 96% of our calories from animal sources?

[FourOfSwords]

Torjus, if I didn't have my 6 year old daughter to worry about, I think I would hop on a plane to Trondheim, learn Norwegian, and join your tribe...hopefully Canadians would be welcome.
A.

[TorrKing]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FourOfSwords', 'T')orjus, if I didn't have my 6 year old daughter to worry about, I think I would hop on a plane to Trondheim, learn Norwegian, and join your tribe...hopefully Canadians would be welcome.
A.