[crapattack]

In case anyone thought differently I was just kidding about the lesbos.

Longsword, good for you that must have been super tough. Have to say that the kid thing might me a deal breaker, once a woman gets this in her head a man might just find himself with kids whether he wants them or not...but hey, if you like kids it might not be so bad. What concerns me more is this woman seems like she is looking to fill some major holes in her life and is using shopping, or kids, thinking this is the next best thing to make her happy when in fact nothing will until she addresses the underlying issues.

I honestly think she might need some professional help, from what you have told us, and if so then no amount of junk, kids or anything else will satisfy her. I do encourage you to go to counselling together and if you do get a half decent psychologist they might be able to convince your wife to seek some individual counselling. Counselling isn't such a bad thing, it's helped millions of couples. Chances are if she's addicted to shopping she has other addictions you may not be aware of.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Longsword', '
')Child issue is a trickier problem: when I married my wife she was adamant that she NEVER wants to have any children, full stop. Now she has done a complete 180-degree turn. I personally am very fond of kids, but I simply cannot justify bringing another human being to this world to lay waste to it. If the urge gets too great, I will adopt. But I doubt this will go down very well with my wife.

[LadyRuby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Longsword', '
')Child issue is a trickier problem: when I married my wife she was adamant that she NEVER wants to have any children, full stop. Now she has done a complete 180-degree turn. I personally am very fond of kids, but I simply cannot justify bringing another human being to this world to lay waste to it. If the urge gets too great, I will adopt. But I doubt this will go down very well with my wife.

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LadyRuby', 'T')he fact that she's turned around so dramatically on the notion of having kids is worrisome.

[Seadragon]

I have to go with Threadbear and others on this one...big screaming red stop signs everywhere in this relationship. Hope you can work it out to your satisfaction, but it sounds like you two are far apart on a couple of major issues. I know we've only heard one side of this story, but you sound like the reasonable one here...

[sameu]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '
')We're talking about rules, yes- structure. Otherwise, I'd love to try out Free Love except the concept died 25 years ago, if it ever existed at all. Most people are dreadfully unhappy; I think that is because Love is War. I just got done reading The Red Queen by Matthew Ridley on reproduction and evolution. His research shows that our biological urges toward mating frequently come at the expense of our own individual happiness, and that is the rule for all other species in the animal kingdom as well. Why should we be any different?

On another level, I also think very few of us will get the relationships "we deserve", because we don't know how to stand up for what we want. That phrase is just a cute bumper sticker with about as much truth value as an Ari Fleisher press conference.

My generation (X) in America, (can't speak for other cultures) got a bunch of garbage that masqueraded as wisdom from our elders on the subject of mating, whether society, or our own parents.

Again I would love to kick back in egalitarian bliss if everyone could be honest and open with one another, but thats not the way things are working. Evolution is working, and it cares not for our personal feelings. Exceptions to the rule? Few. I think people are capable of having open, honest, loving relationships but the fact is few of them have this relationship with themselves let alone another partner.

In the end the only thing you can control is yourself. Thats why having rules- for yourself- is a way of withstanding the onslaught of social pressures from society and people in your sphere of influence who tend to take more than give.

Love emotions give rise to antagonism, jealousy, hatred and the rest of pandora's box. Society and the media wear down our self-respect and tell us to throw away last year's model and get a new one in the relentless pursuit of self-indulgence. Our family and peer groups reinforce this dynamic.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hreadbear's Rules as I have interpreted them:

1. Never give a woman anything. Make her earn it. Otherwise she will not respect you.

2. Tell her how its going to be, don't act like your emotions are negotiable.

[crapattack]

Not to pick on just one part of the post, but

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think because of this erroneous social "training" in egalitarian mating strategies, "enlightened" men today are less composed. Taught to be open, empathetic, understanding, and compassionate, we fail to set rules for ourselves and subsequently we pair with women who, like sharks, eventually smell blood in the water, and treat us like doormats- it is a way of determining if she can control us, and if so, prove to herself that she can do better. Inevitably the reaction from these men is "gee, I didn't see it coming- she was so sweet and lovely in the beginning," etc.

[diogenes]

Crapattack, please examine divorce statistics. The vast majority of divorces are sought by women, who receive favorable concessions in divorce court: custody of children, alimony, child support, many assets----often fueled by accusations of physical or emotional abuse with little evidence.

Furthermore, there is a great deal of feminist propaganda which pervades our society. The extreme forms of feminism, popular on our college campuses and in many areas of public discourse, amount to misandry. As a man, walking by an "anti-rape" rally such as "Take Back the Night" is offensive. I have never and will never rape anyone. I have never tasted alcohol; I am not a person who goes to parties; I have never ingested any drug. Yet these "activists," many of whom had never done research or even thought logically about their accusations, were perfectly willing to yell slogans at all non-participant male passersby.

The moral conduct of women certainly hasn't improved, either. At the beginning of the Twentieth century, it was considered unseemly for a woman to be in the company of a man without a chaperone. Today, young people party, drink, and sleep with whatever happens to be warm and willing nearby----to what benefit?----

Consider the behavior of those around you. There is a pattern which is common enough now, particularly in minority communities and poor communities: a woman marries (or simply gets pregnant) young, generally by a man of poor prospects, and then seeks "stability." She has "matured" in her tastes, and now wants a stable man willing to support her and her child; how much love do you think will flourish in a marriage so founded? Do you think she will divorce him and seek support?

There are many young men who would have been considered good catches in former times who go for vast stretches of their adult lives without any prospects for pairing. When prospects arise, they are often degraded and uninteresting. If you dare to say this out loud--that a single mother of three kids is an uninteresting potential mate--then you are derided, called shallow, and so on.

The pitiful condition of mate-pairing in today's society is related intimately to the culture of consumption and the constant reiteration of pleasure and excitement, rather than contentment and stability, as an ultimate goal. It's the emotional equivalent of an economy based on infinite growth.

Am I bitter? I don't think so----just honest.

[crapattack]

Look, there's a lot of mysogyny going around too, and it doesn't aim to be 'equal'. You hear it in the locker room all the time. Come on. Women have lots of problems too, but face it - 2 in 5 women get abused - who do you think's doing it? Not other women. Men have a responsibility to do better, not whine about how they want their brutal 'king of the castle' birthright back, and if you don't do it yourself you've heard other men talk like it. Do you say anything to them? Instead of being offended by those women trying to take back some of their power, we should be supporting them. Guys who winge away feeling threatened by women make me ill. Women wanting equality doesn't threaten you in any way, and strong free women who speak their minds make damn fine lovers

[diogenes]

I am not familiar with the common topics of discussion in locker rooms, being a rural fellow without a gym membership or anything similar.

Two in five women get abused. If this statistic is accurate, perhaps their selection of mates is flawed. I've certainly never abused a woman. I have many friends who haven't, either. Oddly enough, most of my friends remain bachelors well past the stereotypical age. Several have never even had girlfriends: and why? They're educated, stable individuals. They're simply not "exciting."

"Men have a responsibility to do better?" "Brutal 'king of the castle' birthright?" I have already said that I haven't engaged in any abusive acts, and my chosen social circle is not abusive, either. Why shouldn't I be offended by a group assuming that I am a threat (at best; possibly a criminal) simply because of a trait I can neither choose nor change? Any benefits due me as a member of the Patriarchy are certainly tardy in their arrival. It's good to know that the debits of the Patriarchy can fall squarely on my head, though----

I am not trying to condemn only women, of course. Our entire society is ridiculous. We expect constant entertainment, and that's what even our mate selection has become. Do you honestly think that more women were abused when society was more structured, and courtship was a years-long affair rather than weeks (or hours)? Do you think that our society has been improved by the loss of extended family networks and close friendships? The consumerism which the original poster complains about is the contemporary attempt to fill the void left by these institutions--institutions which have certainly not been helped by the ideologies of feminism or moral libertinism.

[crapattack]

Sounds to me that you're just bitter you can't get a date.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')perhaps their selection of mates is flawed

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', 'L')ook, there's a lot of mysogyny going around too, and it doesn't aim to be 'equal'. You hear it in the locker room all the time. Come on. Women have lots of problems too, but face it - 2 in 5 women get abused - who do you think's doing it? Not other women. Men have a responsibility to do better, not whine about how they want their brutal 'king of the castle' birthright back, and if you don't do it yourself you've heard other men talk like it. Do you say anything to them? Instead of being offended by those women trying to take back some of their power, we should be supporting them. Guys who winge away feeling threatened by women make me ill. Women wanting equality doesn't threaten you in any way, and strong free women who speak their minds make damn fine lovers

[sameu]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('diogenes', '
')Two in five women get abused. If this statistic is accurate, perhaps their selection of mates is flawed. I've certainly never abused a woman. I have many friends who haven't, either. Oddly enough, most of my friends remain bachelors well past the stereotypical age. Several have never even had girlfriends: and why? They're educated, stable individuals. They're simply not "exciting."

[entropyfails]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('diogenes', '
') I have never tasted alcohol; I am not a person who goes to parties; I have never ingested any drug. Yet these "activists," many of whom had never done research or even thought logically about their accusations, were perfectly willing to yell slogans at all non-participant male passersby.

[diogenes]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', 'I') think you need a new nickname. *grin* My favorite story about Diogenes is where he hangs out in front of a brothel and screams "You are a sinner! You are evil and degenerate!" to all of the men going into it until they gave him money to shut him up. Then he took the money and went in the whore house! *laugh*

[BlisteredWhippet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', 'N')ot to pick on just one part of the post, but

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think because of this erroneous social "training" in egalitarian mating strategies, "enlightened" men today are less composed. Taught to be open, empathetic, understanding, and compassionate...

[PenultimateManStanding]

This is a great thread. Threadbear, your candor about women is helpful and it seems to come from a tough-love standpoint. Bravo. Blisteredwhippet, sometimes I scroll past your lengthy posts, but not here. Riveting posts, you're on fire when it comes to this subject. Well done. Now for Diogenes, (the ancient one), he was written about more than just about anyone in the ancient world. People pondered his life and message which was very unusual.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', '
')My favorite story about Diogenes is where he hangs out in front of a brothel and screams "You are a sinner! You are evil and degenerate!" to all of the men going into it until they gave him money to shut him up. Then he took the money and went in the whore house! *laugh*

[ubercynicmeister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Mostly, though I know a few lesbians who like 'em. Mind you: they hate men and draw everyone's attention to the fact at every occasion.

Yet: they dress like men; Don't wash (themselves, and BOY do they reek!), they smoke (more than most men); drive huge vehicles (like men); swear like men, have more tattooes than men,...

[LadyRuby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrairieMule', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('LadyRuby', 'T')he fact that she's turned around so dramatically on the notion of having kids is worrisome.

[crapattack]

diogenes
ubercynicmeister
PenultimateManStanding
Blisstered Whippet

Hmm. I seemed to have touched on some things and obviously you guys have some cherished beliefs there. Whatever, I don't really care to be the only one supporting women's rights on this thread -- strangely, including the women -- Sounds like alot of you guys are feeling victimized by women , think they are some kinda manipulating hell-spawn who just want your money and your seed, when in fact they're people, just like us - but the funniest was Blistered Whippets comment,

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')E: domestic violence. Here's a touchy subject. The studies I have seen indicate that far more often it is the women that commit domestic violence.