[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'O')f course PO is a car issue. Our cars consume the bulk of oil. All the associated problems only exist because of cars. Cars are the root of all evil.

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geko45', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'O')f course PO is a car issue. Our cars consume the bulk of oil. All the associated problems only exist because of cars. Cars are the root of all evil.

[Ender]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geko45', '
')Reach out from where you are sitting and grab something. Is it made of plastic? What country was it made in? China? Do you think it crosed the ocean in a car? Look at the food in yor fridge. How was it planted? How was it harvested? How was it brought to your local grocery store? Do you have a light on? How do they maintain the electric grid?

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ender', '
')The ships that cross the oceans consume a lot less oil for the amount of product they move than other means of transportation.

[Judgie]

Food for thought.

Your average container vessel or bulk carrier has an engine, usually a two-stroke diesel of inline configuration, with anywhere between 6 and 14 cylinders making anywhere from 20,000 up 108,000 brake horsepower (usually at a continuous output with the propeller pitch being used to control speed). The Sulzer-Wartsila RTA-96C is the best example I can think of, with the 14 cylinder version being the world's largest and most powerfull marine diesel. It is a continous output motor, making rated power for 100% of it's operating house, at 104rpm. I won't crap on about the details though, you'll find them here (for the 12 cylinder version):
http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/

The largest model consumes 1660 g/ph or 1 Escalade's (26 gallon tank) worth of heavy diesel oil every minute. In 24 hour's, you'd burn 39.840 gallons or 1532 escalade tank's worth every day. That's apparently at maximum efficiency. There are currently 84 of these engines in service across the world, predominantly of 8 through to 12 cylinder configurations. For kick's, let's say If they were all 14 cylinder versions as above and just 40 were in operation at any given time, you're looking at 1.5 million gallons approx. 57692 Escallade's worth of heavy fuel oil being consumed per day. Scary, isn't it?

Edit:
2 week trip from West-Oz LNG terminal (Port Hedland) to Japan, assuming the South China Sea pirates don't get you :D, approx: 21448 Escalades :D

[Omnitir]

Some more food for thought - the kind that doom sayer's don't want you to think about.

Yes, it may take a huge amount of fuel to produce the huge amount of power to send a ship around the globe. But it arrives with a huge cargo.

Regardless of the large numbers in powering a ship, the fuel prices for long distance shipping are only a fraction of the retail price of the end product.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Reality', 'S')hipping is by far the most energy efficient method of moving goods around. Careful analysis has found that a long-haul truck uses between 0.7 to 1.2 megajoules per tonne-kilometre , while a train hauling a load of freight wagons consumes around 0.6 megajoules per tonne-kilometre. A fairly fast ship carrying around 25,000 tonnes of cargo at 18.5 knots uses only 0.12 megajoules per tonne-kilometre

[thuja]

Listen my friends Ender and Omnitir, I am less doomer than many on this site but you have to look at things historically. In 1973, an OPEC oil embargo went into effect. Prices of gasoline quadrupled, rising from just 25 cents to over a dollar in just a few months. The American Automobile Association recorded that up to twenty percent of the country’s gas stations had no fuel one week during the crisis. In some places drivers were forced to wait in line for two to three hours to get gas.

Now this took placed after one embargo taking oplace between 73-74. The embargo led to a series of recessions and massive inflation that were not fully damped down until the 80's. All costs went up during that time- oil, manufactured goods, food...just check out a history book...

Now that was one embargo affecting a small percentage of oil imports. Now imagine when oil depletion happens at a very conservative rate of 2-3% a year. The first couple years will seem like the 73 embargo---but after that? Dramatic and overwhelming problems.

Omnitir- your solution is that everyone abandon their car? Did that happen in the 70's? Just look to history to see what is likely to happen...

And then extrapolate what will happen when depletion continues on beyond the small percentage that was taken off the market in '73.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'A')nd then extrapolate what will happen when depletion continues on beyond the small percentage that was taken off the market in '73.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ender', 'A')s for the food in my fridge, most of it was produced within a 300km radius of here

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'A')gain I ask you: theoretically, if suddenly every single car in the world was abandoned and every driver started bicycling around, would you honestly argue that PO would still be such a big issue?

[roccman]

http://www.worldnakedbikeride.org/

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geko45', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'A')gain I ask you: theoretically, if suddenly every single car in the world was abandoned and every driver started bicycling around, would you honestly argue that PO would still be such a big issue?

[Omnitir]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geko45', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ender', 'A')s for the food in my fridge, most of it was produced within a 300km radius of here

[Judgie]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'S')ome more food for thought - the kind that doom sayer's don't want you to think about.

Yes, it may take a huge amount of fuel to produce the huge amount of power to send a ship around the globe. But it arrives with a huge cargo.

Regardless of the large numbers in powering a ship, the fuel prices for long distance shipping are only a fraction of the retail price of the end product.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Reality', 'S')hipping is by far the most energy efficient method of moving goods around. Careful analysis has found that a long-haul truck uses between 0.7 to 1.2 megajoules per tonne-kilometre , while a train hauling a load of freight wagons consumes around 0.6 megajoules per tonne-kilometre. A fairly fast ship carrying around 25,000 tonnes of cargo at 18.5 knots uses only 0.12 megajoules per tonne-kilometre

[Rogozhin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')sing the figures from that site, ship fuel accounts for about 0.4% of the cost of the retail product. Shipping is the least of our worries on high oil costs.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'T')hat was a very different situation to the global peak.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'T')hough cycling would look ludicrous to anyone married to their car. Just like easting healthy looks crazy to people with a steady junk food diet.

[Ender]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geko45', '
')Your bicycle fantasy is simply unrealistic. Yes, we will be bicycling eventually, but it won't be the happy go lucky, wind in your hair, carefree experience you portray it as. You will be bicycling 30 miles each way to a job that pays below minimum wage (minimum wage having been abandoned) becasue its the only option you have left

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ender', 'I') realise you're lecturing m'learned friend rather than me, but I live six kilometres from the Melbourne CBD. If I really had to, I could walk there in just over an hour, or cycle there in half an hour. And I don't think my particular line of work is going to be an early casualty of peak oil.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ender', '
')
There will be efficiency gains in various senses: passenger cars will get smaller (ie. you Americans will be driving little Smartcars like the Europeans and Japanese have been doing for years), hybrids will proliferate, technology will advance, people will drive less. You have a very negative outlook on the ability of humanity to adjust to change. Bear in mind that our great-grandparents lived their lives through the use of virtually no oil at all. We'll have much more access to it than they did.