[dolph9]

What does the falling money velocity actually mean?

Where I'm at (DFW metro), everything is humming along nicely. People are earning and spending money like there is no tomorrow. I remember the 1990s and 2000s as being better but only marginally so, not dramatically.

Am I only seeing things from a shrimp perspective? Are wealthy people actually keeping trillions of dollars on the sidelines? If so, what are they waiting for - they aren't going to live forever!

In theory money velocity should be shooting higher, as everybody wants to get rid of what they know to be inflating currency.

[creedoninmo]

Our present way of life is ingrained in us culturally. I personally go against the grain by doing some of my commuting by bicycle, instead of by car. In the place that I work in, this goes against the cultural fiber.
To live more frugally isn't enough. Karen Lynn Allen in her blog has been preaching that for years. We need to produce food, clothing and shelter in a different way. Politics, simply is an expression of what we all want. Trump was supposed to bring a higher standard of living to the rural, white class. When he fails at that he will be out.
I just vacationed in Chicago. The disparity of wealth there is immense and it cannot be denied that it is to some extent a black/white issue. The only way society has to preserve itself is to print more money. I keep trying to find the limits to this system. It may be that the only limit is the total impoverishment of society world wide and a die off. A die off would reduce world wide population, which needs to be done. World wide impoverishment and die off over a fifty year period would be a painful process. People always chose what benefits them the most. BAU benefits us the most right now and we will pursue it until some other way of life is a better option. That is what all the doomers on this site, including myself are doing.
Short is also correct above when he talks about a system where something is actually produced and wealth is created instead of destroyed, but that is not going to happen now. It would mean changing our way of life and reducing the population. Even the countries where collapse is occurring have not come up with a new system. They are simply undergoing dieoff.

[asg70]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dolph9', '
')Where I'm at (DFW metro), everything is humming along nicely. People are earning and spending money like there is no tomorrow. I remember the 1990s and 2000s as being better but only marginally so, not dramatically.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'A')dam - "I'm glad you are now retired and can keep pointing all this out". Who the f*ck is retired? LOL.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('donstewart', '
')I enjoy baiting you.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('donstewart', '@')vtsnowedin


Government, of course, has remained in the red for a long time...which bolsters the ability of private citizens to spend money they don't have...social security and medicare and medicaid payments, for example. Or all the money spent on the military. The government expenditures are income for, mostly, American citizens.

Don Stewart

Don Stewart

[ROCKMAN]

Adam - "not sure how the rules for that work in Texas, but in most places you aren't allowed to make the kind of money you were before."

The SS rules are the same regardless of the state. And there's no limit on income. But if you start collecting before full retire age they partially deduct from your full benefit based on exceeding a limit.

But once you reach full retirement age there is no deduct. And while you still pay SS that can ultimately increase your benefit check. But that's not even the sweetest part of my deal: if you have children under 18 they get a separate check until the reach 18. So my daughter gets a $1,200 check for 24 months. But that's nothing compared to a still working "retired" salesmen I know: by the time his 12 yo daughter turns 18 she will have gotten $94,000 in SS money. In theory if he adopted a baby when he retired and lived long enough the family would get almost $250,000 by the time the kid turned 18.

Another bit of SS: if you were married for 10 years but divorced later your ex also gets a check when you retire.

[ROCKMAN]

Adam - Personally I enjoy being baited about the petroleum industry. It provides me the opportunity to show that I'm one of the smartest people in the room on that particular subject without appearing to be bragging. Hey, I'm just presenting the DOCUMENTED FACTS. LOL.

I'm sure a lot of folks here appreciated learning the details of the refining dynamics. Typically an area where, at best, they get nothing from the MSM. And at worst get a lot of misleading bullsh*t.

Now folks understand how much I learned about the refining dynamic over the last 4 decades. Which is actually bullsh*t. LOL. I've been a f*cking geologist for the last 4 decades....what the hell would I have learned about refining? Once I sold my oil and it left the lease I didn't give a sh*t what happened to it. LOL.

Everything I know about blended oils, API distribution of domestic and imported oils, what refineries like to crack and their profit margins, that essentially NG powers refining and not the oil itself, etc, etc. Hell, I didn't know there was another use for ethane other then burning it with the methane. And I'm the one that started the ethane thread after reading about the many terns of $billions being spent on new ethane crackers.

I pulled all those DOCUMENTED FACTS from the web. Which is a tad disappointing how some folks here just swallow the Kool-aid when they are just as capable of doing what I've done.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', 'A')dam - "not sure how the rules for that work in Texas, but in most places you aren't allowed to make the kind of money you were before."

The SS rules are the same regardless of the state. And there's no limit on income. But if you start collecting before full retire age they partially deduct from your full benefit based on exceeding a limit.

[AdamB]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ROCKMAN', '
')I pulled all those DOCUMENTED FACTS from the web. Which is a tad disappointing how some folks here just swallow the Kool-aid when they are just as capable of doing what I've done.

[Cog]

There is also an ideological side of doomerism. There are those who hate capitalism. Now why they hate it varies. Perhaps they didn't have much success in life, or they see capitalism as unfair. Fairness being equivalent to what they see as The Great Leveling Event. Whereby those who have a lot are brought low by those who do not. They see this as fair and search out anything that will confirm this is happening.

Which is why no matter what flavor of doom we are talking about, in this case refineries, if that doesn't pan out, they change subjects to some other reason for doom. By constantly shifting the goal posts of what constitutes doom, they avoid being pinned down to defending their dubious and disproven contentions.

[ROCKMAN]

Cog - "There is also an ideological side of doomerism." Not just cookers but "environmentallists" and cornucopians. Did you follow my long running battle with a variety of "environmentalists" that could not contain their excitement over President Obama's refusal to approve the Keystone XL permit. A great "victory" to save the climate. Eventually as oil sands production continued to increase they moved on to other "victories" like the Paris Accord. But I don't recall a single post here or an article in the MSM admitting the lack of the permit made no difference at all.

Lots of cornie examples as well as greenies who try to stretch reality to fitting their "hopes".

[Cog]

I did indeed follow your posts about the Keystone XL. The oil sands oil was coming this way regardless of whether the Trans-border crossing happened or not. But there were those who thought or most likely wanted to believe that stopping that pipeline crossing was the only thing that mattered. It didn't of course.

I am one of those cornies who believed it mattered. But now I just view the Keystone XL as a safer way to transport oil from Canada, that was going to come here by some other method anyway. Generally speaking, if something is profitable, its going to happen whether we want it to or not.

[Outcast_Searcher]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '
')You mentioned collecting social security...not sure how the rules for that work in Texas, but in most places you aren't allowed to make the kind of money you were before.

[rockdoc123]

I'm not sure I'm politically left of anyone but am I not correct in assuming that social security is funded from tax payer dollars? If so there is a good chance that the person who is doing very well income wise will be paying a much larger share of overall social security through his/her working life. What they get during retirement probably comes no where near paying them back whereas it is probably closer for those with lower incomes. As well, and I'm not sure of the rules given I live in Canada these days, all individuals would have to pay taxes on the social security payments as income. An individual who did particularly well during his working career and squirrelled away a lot of the income as savings would then be paying income tax on the total sum of income/dividends/capital gains from his/her investments coupled with income from SS?
In Canada it is all a bit different there is Old Age Security which has a claw back provision. If you are making over a certain amount of money from investments after you are retired and eligible you basically end up with nothing from this program. There is, however, also the Canada pension plan that individuals who worked for a certain minimum number of years can collect. The actual payout is based on age at which you elect to collect it and how long you paid into the program during working years.

[vtsnowedin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Outcast_Searcher', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AdamB', '
')You mentioned collecting social security...not sure how the rules for that work in Texas, but in most places you aren't allowed to make the kind of money you were before.

[ROCKMAN]

Outcast - "please correct me if I'm wrong. Because if I'm not, middle class Joe Sixpack cannot get his/her SS income and continue to work and make a (say) $50,000 or above income in retirement doing an honest job. "

Yes, complete wrong. If he has reached full retirement age he gets his full SS benefit check whether he has a taxable income of $50,000, $500,000 or $5 million. But he still pays income tax and still has SS deducted just as he would if he had not retired.

Here you go if you want the proof directly from the govt:

https://faq.ssa.gov/link/portal/34011/3 ... t-benefits

Folks getting close to retire should read the govt's SS website. For a govt product it is really excellent. And more important: easily navigated and even an easier read.

And again a shock to some: if you got married in your 20's, divorced 10 or more years later: your ex gets a SS check when you retire. And you don't even have to inform your ex: the data you are required to submit to the govt to get your SS the govt will notify both you and your ex. Or, in my case, notified me of my 16 yo daughter's benefit.

As I said: a shockingly and surprising GREAT system

[StarvingLion]

"By the mid-twentieth century, coal had become the leading fuel for generating electricity in the US. The long, steady rise of coal-fired generation of electricity shifted to a decline after 2007. The decline has been linked to the increased availability of natural gas, decreased consumption,[6] renewable power, and more stringent environmental regulations. "

Exactly when the base money exploded upwards. Scamerica is "funding" itself with money printing shale and destroying whats left of its coal powered industrial base. And then the scammers stick it all in their looting vehicles (eg. Facebook) to avoid inflation.

"Renewable" power is a transition to SUDDEN MASS BANKRUPTCY. No personnel required for windmills because there will be no money to pay them. Its not SUDDEN MASS BANKRUPTCY, its saving the planet from runaway global warming...HAHAHAHAHA...you suckers are gullible.

Scamerica bet the farm on The Quantum. What did the Quantum deliver? The CIA (oops I mean Google) bought a toy Quantum computer from D-Wave. That and the looting vehicle Facebook....THATS IT!

You're all toast, admit it. Trees and ropes await you.

[ROCKMAN]

Yeah!!! The pissed off kitty is back. Howdy puddy kat.

But: "...destroying whats left of its coal powered industrial base" Well, "destroying" might be a bit of an exaggeration. Back in May 2007 151 proposed coal plants were identified. Mostly due to the 300%+ increase in NG prices. But as those prices fell plans were either delayed or cancelled. Of course many could get back on track again if NG prices boom again. But it didn't kill all the projects. Current status of new US coal fired power plants according to the govt:

Early stages of development: 3 projects;
Advanced stages of development: 1 projects;
In operation or under construction: 41 projects.

[kublikhan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dolph9', 'W')hat does the falling money velocity actually mean?

Where I'm at (DFW metro), everything is humming along nicely. People are earning and spending money like there is no tomorrow. I remember the 1990s and 2000s as being better but only marginally so, not dramatically.

Am I only seeing things from a shrimp perspective? Are wealthy people actually keeping trillions of dollars on the sidelines? If so, what are they waiting for - they aren't going to live forever!

In theory money velocity should be shooting higher, as everybody wants to get rid of what they know to be inflating currency.