[americandream]

Yes yes, we know all of that Thralen

My query is rather simple. Where does mankind, built as it apparently is according to you, to the devotion of the entirety of its brief sojourn on earth, to buying and selling underwear, crockpots, toothbrushes and mopeds to name a few trinkets, stand, when the terminal event of capitalism destroying resource depletion of the calibre contemplated by these websites. finally arrives.

I will let you onto a little secret. Marx's economic dialectic contemplates just this scenario in objectively examining the seeds within capitalism for its own destruction. Of course, petulant individuals on this site, such as they are, are prone to foaming and frothing at the mouth when I raise these pertinent issues. However, I do not, the spectre of communism conjure up, like some medieval wizard, by my detailing of this Marxian scenario. I simply raise up this issue for those wiser ones around me to enlighten me on. Personally, my opinion is that capitalism's survival depends solely on something dramatic like ferrying resources from elsewhere in the universe (which is not likely given the problems with proliferating space junk in flight paths), or perhaps the synthesising of raw materials from thin air, again unlikely.

That then leaves these imperatives, instincts if you will, that you speak of....functions almost, of human existence. Where is man then minus the means to satisfy these deep instinctual drives. Alernatively, are these drives no more than cultural conditioning? The consequence of our material arrangements, subject to change and adaptation to any number of states, including notions of well-being beyond personal gain.

Unlike you, I do not believe that idealist or dreamers will be the engines for change, rather the ordinary man and woman whom you evidently have a low regard for. The lowly serf...not dissimilar to the men and women who crossed the Atlantic to the New World.

[americandream]

btw Thralen

I guess I have to state the obvious. I am not a wild eyed anti-globalising anarchist. Pretty regular bloke in fact. I don't weep at pictures of starving babies in Africa. I don't view the Buffet's of this world with disdain. I am ideolgically a Marxist dialectician although I would have thought you would have picked this up by now. I gave you numerous leads.

OK. Is capitalism evil? No. Is capitalism a step up from feudalism? Yes. Is capitalism man at his most sentient? No. Can we impose socialism? No. Is capitalism the end of history? Contemplate my posts and you may glean the answer.

[Revi]

Capitalism and Socialism both seem like ways to burn up a bunch of oil to me. Capitalism wins in the amount burned, however. Socialism may be a better strategy as oil dwindles, since the peasants don't get cars and live in apartment blocks instead of detatched houses.

This allows the people at the top to sell more oil.

In America the peasants get to live in trailers and get 24 hours of propaganda, cheap beer and Nascar. When they get sick or injured they are taken off to the hospital to die.

In Russia the peasants get to live in apartments, get 24 hours of propaganda, cheap vodka and sports. When they get sick or injured they get taken to the hospital to die.

The only differnce is that the Russians don't get a hospital bill.

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'C')apitalism and Socialism both seem like ways to burn up a bunch of oil to me. Capitalism wins in the amount burned, however. Socialism may be a better strategy as oil dwindles, since the peasants don't get cars and live in apartment blocks instead of detatched houses.

This allows the people at the top to sell more oil.

In America the peasants get to live in trailers and get 24 hours of propaganda, cheap beer and Nascar. When they get sick or injured they are taken off to the hospital to die.

In Russia the peasants get to live in apartments, get 24 hours of propaganda, cheap vodka and sports. When they get sick or injured they get taken to the hospital to die.

The only differnce is that the Russians don't get a hospital bill.

[shortonsense]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', '
')In America the peasants get to live in trailers and get 24 hours of propaganda, cheap beer and Nascar. When they get sick or injured they are taken off to the hospital to die.

In Russia the peasants get to live in apartments, get 24 hours of propaganda, cheap vodka and sports. When they get sick or injured they get taken to the hospital to die.

The only differnce is that the Russians don't get a hospital bill.

[Thralen]

americandream (Mr Troll):

I understand what you are getting at and asking, you need not attempt to spell it out. Simply answer the question that Kristen posed (the one which I answered and you are still attempting to dissect the answer from) and I will be happy to answer yours. Short of doing so with an original answer, stop pestering me. I have answers for your questions, I'm simply not posting them as the discussion between us has been rather lopsided with me putting forth the original thoughts and you attempting to attack them.

Thralen

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Stonemason', 'A')ctually, the United States was not intended to be a democracy, but a republic. Democracy is mob rule (51% rule 49%), arguably one of the worst methods of herding people around. The Constitution along with the Bill of Rights were ostensibly purposed to avoid this outcome. Then a few industrialist-bankers hijacked the system and took control of the propaganda spouts (education, marketing, tv, etc) bought the houses of government, and their corporations removed their prior charter-based (public service based) existance after the Civil War (arguably the purpose to remove the agrarian non-industrialised opportunity the south had remaining).

Among that propaganda is the idea that the US is a democracy, perhaps because of all the hubris special interest groups bring to the table.

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Stonemason', 'A')ctually, the United States was not intended to be a democracy, but a republic. Democracy is mob rule (51% rule 49%), arguably one of the worst methods of herding people around. The Constitution along with the Bill of Rights were ostensibly purposed to avoid this outcome. Then a few industrialist-bankers hijacked the system and took control of the propaganda spouts (education, marketing, tv, etc) bought the houses of government, and their corporations removed their prior charter-based (public service based) existance after the Civil War (arguably the purpose to remove the agrarian non-industrialised opportunity the south had remaining).

Among that propaganda is the idea that the US is a democracy, perhaps because of all the hubris special interest groups bring to the table.

[Kristen]

I think I can answer the question why we can't apply our intelligence to a social system. We're incapacitated by nature, which include emotions; fear, greed, desire, pleasure, you name it. The subject of humanity is so complex that you could study everything from sociology, psychology, economics, genetics, history, etc. and still barely grasp its contents. Sure, we may be the only thing on Earth to put the concept into a linguistic form the ultimate question of why we exist and what happens after death, but maybe it doesn't mean we're that smart.

A second reason is the rise in individualism vs the holistic approach. People are disorganized and often wrapped in their own world. They're are out there for themselves, They are working towards their own goal, not for a greater purpose for humanity, each person given to make the country, continent, or community better.

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kristen', 'I') think I can answer the question why we can't apply our intelligence to a social system. We're incapacitated by nature, which include emotions; fear, greed, desire, pleasure, you name it. The subject of humanity is so complex that you could study everything from sociology, psychology, economics, genetics, history, etc. and still barely grasp its contents. Sure, we may be the only thing on Earth to put the concept into a linguistic form the ultimate question of why we exist and what happens after death, but maybe it doesn't mean we're that smart.

A second reason is the rise in individualism vs the holistic approach. People are disorganized and often wrapped in their own world. They're are out there for themselves, They are working towards their own goal, not for a greater purpose for humanity, each person given to make the country, continent, or community better.

[americandream]

When the gun of species suicide is held at our head in a world no longer able to sustain our petulant obsession with trinkets, humanity WILL change. In fact, I can guarantee that we will change and we will embrace some variant of community/communism. There is nothing more focussing than that ultimate of all instincts, the will to live.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kristen', 'I') think I can answer the question why we can't apply our intelligence to a social system. We're incapacitated by nature, which include emotions; fear, greed, desire, pleasure, you name it. The subject of humanity is so complex that you could study everything from sociology, psychology, economics, genetics, history, etc. and still barely grasp its contents. Sure, we may be the only thing on Earth to put the concept into a linguistic form the ultimate question of why we exist and what happens after death, but maybe it doesn't mean we're that smart.

A second reason is the rise in individualism vs the holistic approach. People are disorganized and often wrapped in their own world. They're are out there for themselves, They are working towards their own goal, not for a greater purpose for humanity, each person given to make the country, continent, or community better.

[careinke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y query is rather simple. Where does mankind, built as it apparently is according to you, to the devotion of the entirety of its brief sojourn on earth, to buying and selling underwear, crockpots, toothbrushes and mopeds to name a few trinkets, stand, when the terminal event of capitalism destroying resource depletion of the calibre contemplated by these websites. finally arrives.

[americandream]

The question still stands. Where will the resources come from to sustain Walmart town?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y query is rather simple. Where does mankind, built as it apparently is according to you, to the devotion of the entirety of its brief sojourn on earth, to buying and selling underwear, crockpots, toothbrushes and mopeds to name a few trinkets, stand, when the terminal event of capitalism destroying resource depletion of the calibre contemplated by these websites. finally arrives.

[americandream]

I mean its quiet simple.

Technology will rescue us. Space freighters, flight to another earth like planet, spontaneous synthesis of everything out of thin air, recycling the dumps until peak dumps, growing cars, underwear, condoms and bubble gum on trees. Take your pick. Make my day.

[careinke]

I'm leaning toward Anarchy or best case, Tribalism.

[americandream]

Ain't gonna work bub. The days when we could freeload the planet will be, glaringly, obviously over. We will either have to shape up as a species or die. There will be no dreadlocked, pot smoking gatherings of cabbageheads pissing around at resource wasting kumbaya junkets. No more delusions of knitting genes together from toads and flies to make hybrid SUV's. Mankind will be looking at energy sources and a raft of other commodities perilously close to the bottom and earth's challenge. You want to die or change, on my terms? The petulants will cry and wail no doubt but in times of advesity, humankind has a remarkably selective memory when it comes to removing impediments.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', 'I')'m leaning toward Anarchy or best case, Tribalism.

[careinke]

Sure it will work......right after the die off.

[americandream]

Nope. There will be a mass killing off of surplus cornucopians and a Soviet syle dictatorship, a centralised and global command economy based on eking out the remaining resources for as long as we can, strict birth control polices as well. Regimentation and strict rationing. The emergence of a culture of service and self sacrifice. There will be the recognition that it mean everyone on board or mass death across the planet. And those with the power to make things happen will NOT want to die if, they can avoid it. And they will act to avoid their demise. The spectre of death is a wonderful adaptational mechanism.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('careinke', 'S')ure it will work......right after the die off.

[americandream]

We will be acculturated into viewing sharing and the communtiy as the greatest of our achievements. In regarding the sacrifice of ones life for the community as the pinnacle of what it is to be a citizen. We will be socially engineered into leaving, each of us individually, a minimal footprint on the remaining stores of earth's larder. Religion will be ruthlessly removed as it will pose a challenge to the order, devoted as that order is to prolonging the socio-economy for the survivors. And talk of free markets, freedom , constitution...in fact anything that would otherwise threaten the survival of the group will be gradually accultured out of our discourse. Large scale communities will be the order of things.

[careinke]

Not for me. If that sort of nightmare unfolds, I can guarantee you I will be dead well before implementation.