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THE Collapse of the US Thread (merged)

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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby rangerone314 » Mon 23 Nov 2009, 13:28:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'P')reston that was nasty but very true. If you stripped naked and lay at the main intersection of a city on a mattress with your legs spread. Probably the first passerby who was a male would start kicking you in the nuts follwed by many more kicks by others. However if you were a female and did the above, a lineup of guys around the block would quickly form to avail themselves of your wares.

I would NOT be the guy at the end of the line...
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby mcgowanjm » Mon 23 Nov 2009, 13:53:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PrestonSturges', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hillsidedigger', 'C')ollapse can also be termed reorganization and doesn't sound so bad.


Our group at work "reorganized" and it was ugly ugly ugly, neighbor against neighbor, and caused by weak stupid people spawning ridiculous rumors, Salem witch trials style. If it had actually involved a group of survival situation, there would have been few survivors.


A collapse is followed by reorganization at a lower level.

Notes on “The Collapse of Complex Societies” (J. Tainter):

Benefits of collapse? This is not, however, to say that after collapse the world shifts into a post-apocalyptic Mad Max-style Hobbesian war of all against all where the center doesn’t hold, grass grows in a streets and bands of malnourished survivors scavenge amidst the rusted ruins of former grandeur. Contemporary elites incapable of primary food production (as well as historians) see the loss of peace, great literature and technology in a tragic light; yet collapse is at base an economizing process carried through by rational individuals for whom this outcome is objectively preferable. There is evidence that in many parts of the Roman Empire average nutrition actually improved, since the peasants were no longer burdened into forced savings to maintain the imperial superstructure of magnates, bureaucrats and soldiers.
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby americandream » Mon 23 Nov 2009, 16:05:00

What world?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('katkinkate', 'O')ne of these days it might actually happen and the world will look at USA in wonder and proclaim, "Well, I never expected that to happen!"
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby TWilliam » Mon 23 Nov 2009, 23:54:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', 'B')ut keep it coming, you are proving my point beautifully.

And which point would that be, exactly?

Mos has it right; inner-city gangs are an authentic modern tribal culture (I believe it was either Quinn or Diamond who noted this point, I forget which), and they function exactly as human tribes have for as long as they've existed...
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby americandream » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 00:27:59

Pin striped City Lawyers are equally tribal going by your logic. So are the Free Masons. Proves nothing other than that conditions are such that they are conducive to these developments.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', 'B')ut keep it coming, you are proving my point beautifully.

And which point would that be, exactly?

Mos has it right; inner-city gangs are an authentic modern tribal culture (I believe it was either Quinn or Diamond who noted this point, I forget which), and they function exactly as human tribes have for as long as they've existed...
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby Homesteader » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 00:32:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', 'B')ut keep it coming, you are proving my point beautifully.

And which point would that be, exactly?

Mos has it right; inner-city gangs are an authentic modern tribal culture (I believe it was either Quinn or Diamond who noted this point, I forget which), and they function exactly as human tribes have for as long as they've existed...


It would be impossible for inner-city gangs to function exactly as human tribes did for 3 million years, and a few still do today. The gangs exist within our culture, and are hierarchal. The dynamic is completely different. I would think that this would be self-evident.

My point was clearly stated, re-read my first post on the matter.
"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby TWilliam » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 01:07:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', 'I')t would be impossible for inner-city gangs to function exactly as human tribes did for 3 million years, and a few still do today. The gangs exist within our culture, and are hierarchal. The dynamic is completely different. I would think that this would be self-evident.

I'm talking about in a social sense, not in the sense that they run around in animal skins hunting game and picking berries, tho' they do forage in their fashion. They also engage in inter-tribal warfare in a manner virtually identical to the ways in which our ancient ancestors did, primarily hit-and-run raids. Only today we call it 'drive-by shootings'.

As far as being 'self-evident', it is self-evident to cultural anthropologists that gangs are the modern parallel of prehistoric tribes...
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby Homesteader » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 01:11:49

I wasn't initmating that they weren't the same because of a lack of animal skins.

Simply because it is written doesn't make it so. Many history books would have you believe that history has only occurred since writing was invented.
"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
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Beliefs are what people fall back on when the facts make them uncomfortable.
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby americandream » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 01:17:12

I'ld leave 'em for a week in the Outback and you'll see what these little girlies are made of. :lol:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', 'I')t would be impossible for inner-city gangs to function exactly as human tribes did for 3 million years, and a few still do today. The gangs exist within our culture, and are hierarchal. The dynamic is completely different. I would think that this would be self-evident.

I'm talking about in a social sense, not in the sense that they run around in animal skins hunting game and picking berries, tho' they do forage in their fashion. They also engage in inter-tribal warfare in a manner virtually identical to the ways in which our ancient ancestors did, primarily hit-and-run raids. Only today we call it 'drive-by shootings'.

As far as being 'self-evident', it is self-evident to cultural anthropologists that gangs are the modern parallel of prehistoric tribes...
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby Novus » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 02:02:01

Inner city gangs are run more like corporations than tribes as they operate for profit to make money by selling drugs and prostitution. The gang leaders and kingpins keep most of the crime money and live a high consumerist lifestyle. If gangs were run as a tribe there would be no kingpins and the gang money would be spread around to better the lives of all the gang members but it doesn't work that way. When society collapses the gangs will collapse as well.
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby Homesteader » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 03:50:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'I')nner city gangs are run more like corporations than tribes as they operate for profit to make money by selling drugs and prostitution. The gang leaders and kingpins keep most of the crime money and live a high consumerist lifestyle. If gangs were run as a tribe there would be no kingpins and the gang money would be spread around to better the lives of all the gang members but it doesn't work that way. When society collapses the gangs will collapse as well.


Thank you. +1

Now, was this so difficult to puzzle out?
"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill

Beliefs are what people fall back on when the facts make them uncomfortable.
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby Cloud9 » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 08:49:10

I tend to agree with the idea that modern gangs are a form of tribalism. First off, it would be a mistake to describe all tribes as groups of hunter gatherers with no hierarchy. There are simply too many of them. http://www.native-languages.org/languages.htm

Some were hunter gatherers. Some were farmers. Some were marauders. Some societies were matriarchal. Some were patriarchal. One size does not fit all.

Tribalism is defined as the exaltation of one’s group over other groups, strong in group loyalty.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/TRIBALISM
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 09:57:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cloud9', '
')Tribalism is defined as the exaltation of one’s group over other groups, strong in group loyalty.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/TRIBALISM





The anthropological meaning of "tribe" is different from the dictionary definition.

Some authors, such as Daniel Quinn, use the word "tribe" in a way interchangeable with the word "band."

"Band: The characteristic form of social organization found among foragers; a small group of people, usually with less than 50 members. Labour is divided according to age and sex, and social relations are highly egalitarian."
http://www.oupcanada.com/documents/File ... er%203.doc.

More about bands: http://tobyspeople.com/anthropik/2005/0 ... index.html

Tribe: "Historically, tribal societies consisted only of a relatively small, local population. The internal social structure of a tribe can vary greatly from case to case, but is often a relatively simple structure, with few (if any) significant social distinctions between individuals. "

Band: "A band society is the simplest form of human society. A band generally consists of a small kinship group, no larger than an extended family or small clan. Bands have very informal leadership; the older members of the band generally are looked to for guidance and advice, but there are no written laws and no law enforcement seen typically in more complex societies. Bands' customs are almost always transmitted orally. Formal social institutions are few or non-existent. Religion is generally based on family tradition, individual experience, or counsel from a shaman. Bands are distinguished from tribes in that tribes are generally larger, consisting of many families. Tribes have more social institutions and clearly defined leadership such as a "chief," or "elder." Tribes are also more permanent than bands; a band can cease to exist if only a small group walks out. Many tribes are in fact sub-divided into bands; in the United States, some tribes are made up of official bands that live in specific locations."

Chiefdom: "A chiefdom is any community led by an individual known as a chief. In anthropological theory, one model of human social development rooted in ideas of cultural evolution describes a chiefdom as a form of social organization more complex than a tribe, and less complex than a state or a civilization. The most succinct (but still working) definition of a chiefdom in anthropology belongs to Robert Carneiro: "An autonomous political unit comprising a number of villages or communities under the permanent control of a paramount chief" [4] Chiefdoms have been shown by anthropologists and archaeologists to be a relatively unstable form of social organization. They are prone to cycles of collapse and renewal, in which tribal units band together, expand in power, fragment through some form of social stress, and band together again.
An example of this kind of social organization would be the Germanic Peoples who conquered the western Roman Empire in the fifth century C.E. Although commonly referred to as tribes, the Germanic Peoples were by anthropological definition not tribes, but chiefdoms. They had a complex social hierarchy consisting of kings, a warrior aristocracy, common freemen, serfs and slaves."

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Tribe

Many people confuse the word "tribe" with what is actually a "chiefdom." The tribes of Afghanistan, for instance, and probably most gangs such as the mafia, are chiefdoms.

It would be helpful if we could have a common set of meanings for these words if we're going to discuss these forms of social organization, otherwise we're not communicating clearly.
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby Homesteader » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 10:14:51

[quote="Ludi"]
The anthropological meaning of "tribe" is different from the dictionary definition.

Some authors, such as Daniel Quinn, use the word "tribe" in a way interchangeable with the word "band."

"Band: The characteristic form of social organization found among foragers; a small group of people, usually with less than 50 members. Labour is divided according to age and sex, and social relations are highly egalitarian."
http://www.oupcanada.com/documents/File ... er%203.doc.

More about bands: http://tobyspeople.com/anthropik/2005/0 ... index.html

Tribe: "Historically, tribal societies consisted only of a relatively small, local population. The internal social structure of a tribe can vary greatly from case to case, but is often a relatively simple structure, with few (if any) significant social distinctions between individuals. "
quote]

Thousands of forms of the above worked for 2-3 million years, at least to the extent that humans didn't cause mass extinctions, spread pollution to every corner of the planet, have world wars, struggle under poorly coneived laws, have their food under lock and key, and the masses didn't support the elite.

Something we can scarce coneive of now. We have forgotten that there was another way besides "civilization".

I particularly like the distinction "with few, if any, significant social distinctions between individuals".
"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby americandream » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 15:49:33

It seems these days, all one has to do is write a book and one can stand the English language on its head. Who the heck is this Quinn fellow anyways?
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 18:07:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', ' ')Who the heck is this Quinn fellow anyways?



Just some grumpy old guy. :)

http://www.ishmael.org/origins/DQ/
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby Quinny » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 18:19:49

I agree with this to a point, but in my experience many gangs are not just economic entities and loyalty and belonging are often prime motivators amongst young men. I taught some gang members many years ago and was amazed by their 'honesty'.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'I')nner city gangs are run more like corporations than tribes as they operate for profit to make money by selling drugs and prostitution. The gang leaders and kingpins keep most of the crime money and live a high consumerist lifestyle. If gangs were run as a tribe there would be no kingpins and the gang money would be spread around to better the lives of all the gang members but it doesn't work that way. When society collapses the gangs will collapse as well.


Thank you. +1

Now, was this so difficult to puzzle out?
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby americandream » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 19:28:55

Economics are the decisive factor though and the loyalties are premised on economic factors. I mean, no Eton boy is going to join a gang, is he? Russian gangs are a post Soviet feature.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'I') agree with this to a point, but in my experience many gangs are not just economic entities and loyalty and belonging are often prime motivators amongst young men. I taught some gang members many years ago and was amazed by their 'honesty'.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'I')nner city gangs are run more like corporations than tribes as they operate for profit to make money by selling drugs and prostitution. The gang leaders and kingpins keep most of the crime money and live a high consumerist lifestyle. If gangs were run as a tribe there would be no kingpins and the gang money would be spread around to better the lives of all the gang members but it doesn't work that way. When society collapses the gangs will collapse as well.


Thank you. +1

Now, was this so difficult to puzzle out?
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Re: Impending Collapse of the USA by GATTO

Unread postby TWilliam » Tue 24 Nov 2009, 22:30:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'I')nner city gangs are run more like corporations than tribes as they operate for profit to make money by selling drugs and prostitution. The gang leaders and kingpins keep most of the crime money and live a high consumerist lifestyle. If gangs were run as a tribe there would be no kingpins and the gang money would be spread around to better the lives of all the gang members but it doesn't work that way. When society collapses the gangs will collapse as well.

It is true that in many instances what were once small local gangs have evolved into larger, more organized structures which do in fact operate in a manner synonymous with chiefdoms. When I was speaking of gangs I was using the term in reference to the smaller, more 'clan-like' gangs, which function similarly to the early tribes.
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