[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', 'N')ow, Plantagenet, don't be a deliberate ignoramus. .

[eastbay]

... and AD never suggested YOU offered the two (and only two!) options. AD said these ARE the two options and defended his selection, which will be the one we all ultimately will live under whether we want to or not.

Again, capitalism cannot manage a period of harsh decline. It's not designed for it. It never has and won't this time either. It's really not that difficult to understand. The only remaining question we face is how to arrange the coming period of socialized society. Will it be a modern-day leftist and PC hell or will it be, as AD optimistically suggests, a society steering humanity sanely to somehow survive the uncharted waters of our Common Disaster.

[dorlomin]

"The left" and "the right" are both illusionary philosophies that are deeply predicated in the Christian ideal of history moving towards an ultimate goal, a 'millenium' where paradise resides on earth. They both emerged from the humanist movement of the enlightenment (Adam Smith was a personal friend of David Hume).

There is no god, there is no invisible hand and there is no historical dialectic.

There is only a semi conscious apes efforts to retain some dismal amount of control over an inherently chaotic universe.

My personal philosphy is that once we shatter the illusions of humanism, that we are progressing forward, we can start to build societies that can deal with declining energy. In some places free markets will be a good solution for the orginising of society (i.e music or software development) and in others the clunking fist of the state can still remake into systems that last longer but diliver less instant profit (i.e. transport).

Socialism and liberal capitalism were wonderfull engines of moving wealth or creating it in a world of increasing energy. Time to focus on making our lives as comfortable as we can with declining energy.


But I very strongly suspect our dreams will not be easily given up.

[sjn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '&')quot;The left" and "the right" are both illusionary philosophies that are deeply predicated in the Christian ideal of history moving towards an ultimate goal, a 'millenium' where paradise resides on earth. They both emerged from the humanist movement of the enlightenment (Adam Smith was a personal friend of David Hume). --snip-- Socialism and liberal capitalism were wonderfull engines of moving wealth or creating it in a world of increasing energy. Time to focus on making our lives as comfortable as we can with declining energy. But I very strongly suspect our dreams will not be easily given up.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '[')So you think digging dirt is far worse than the out of control commodification of humanity as evidenced by widespread prostitution and pedophilia in the unregulated world of global capital?

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dorlomin', '&')quot;The left" and "the right" are both illusionary philosophies that are deeply predicated in the Christian ideal of history moving towards an ultimate goal, a 'millenium' where paradise resides on earth. --snip--
Socialism and liberal capitalism were wonderfull engines of moving wealth or creating it in a world of increasing energy. Time to focus on making our lives as comfortable as we can with declining energy. But I very strongly suspect our dreams will not be easily given up.

[mattduke]

How will the socialists implement their methods of control in a post peak world? Holodomor? Gulags? Berlin Walls? Cuban revolutionary guards? Stasi? Killing Fields? Pogroms? Red Terrors? Great Purges? Reform Through Labor?


Freedom is popular.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'H')ow will the socialists implement their methods of control in a post peak world? Holodomor? Gulags? Berlin Walls? Cuban revolutionary guards? Stasi? Killing Fields? Pogroms? Red Terrors? Great Purges? Reform Through Labor?

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'I')t is for us who understand history's cold hand, to be calm, collected and aware of the forces at play and to, wherever possible, encourage scientific debate.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'D')on't try to wrap your political claptrap in the mantle of science. Whatever it is you are trying to sell, buddy, it ain't science.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mattduke', 'H')ow will the socialists implement their methods of control in a post peak world? Holodomor? Gulags? Berlin Walls? Cuban revolutionary guards? Stasi? Killing Fields? Pogroms? Red Terrors? Great Purges? Reform Through Labor? Freedom is popular.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'D')on't try to wrap your political claptrap in the mantle of science. Whatever it is you are trying to sell, buddy, it ain't science.

[americandream]

I think the major difficulty here is that people assume that the choices they have today and which they are substantively invested in emotionally are set in stone and available as a matter fact. Wheres, these are functions of capital, its level of development, availability of surplus, systemic fracture lines and scope to name a few of the functions.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'Y')ou can rant on as much as you want about about feudalism, or capital, or labor, or any other topic. But Marxist rants aren't science any more then "christian science" is science, even though both christian scientists and marxists desperately want to wrap their belief systems in the mantle of science.

[Plantagenet]

I'm glad you have your faith in Marxism and its great prophets, AmericanDream. Please be a little patient with those of us who don't
share your religious faith in Marxism and its prophets.



When I was in Russia, back when it was socialist, the newer cemeteries had two main kinds of tombstones. True communists were buried beneath the hammer and sickle symbol---little rusty cheapo hammer and sickles were mounted on skinny poles above their graves proclaiming their faith in Marxism even beyond the grave.

But many other people were buried beneath auto steering wheels. Apparently there was nothing so glorious in Soviet Russia as to have a car and be able to drive, and the good people wanted to be buried with a treasured auto steering wheel mounted over their graves for all eternity, rather then a rusty ol' marxist hammer and sickle.

Even in Marxist Russia, after decades of Gulags and repression, there were little whispers of individuality and freedom

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', 'T')he left could reply but the righties on this site seem to hopelessly fill up space trying to frame their ideology. They post like people on a mission. I surmise they may be acting out of fear or an inferiority complex. It is like they can't let a forum pass wherein they might get a chance to bash Obama even obliquely. Most of us look past those cheap shots and try to participate, but their blather does tend to kill topic threads (like it looks like it is about to kill this one) and bring on tangents instead.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I')'m glad you have your faith in Marxism and its great prophets, AmericanDream. Please be a little patient with those of us who don't
share your religious faith in Marxism and its prophets. --snip--
Even in Marxist Russia, after decades of Gulags and repression, there were little whispers of individuality and freedom

[eastbay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'I') think the major difficulty here is that people assume that the choices they have today and which they are substantively invested in emotionally are set in stone and available as a matter fact. Wheres, these are functions of capital, its level of development, availability of surplus, systemic fracture lines and scope to name a few of the functions.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'E')ven after learning about and discussing the coming ravages of peak oil, they're still clinging to the hope and dream of an ever expanding cheap energy fueled capitalist economy. Forever. My oh my are they ever going to be in for a big surprise.