[eastbay]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'I') suspect that the whole resource failure/life transformational notion of capitals profligacy is something of a quaint idea for the vast bulk of those who call themselves doomers. Something to give their otherwise dull lives some meaning.
On the other hand, this denial is rather comforting as I suspect that when the chips are down and they confront the stark choices of deepening chaos or ordered communitarianism, they will vote in their droves for the rational order of community! In fact this curious dichotomy convinces me that communism will prevail.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'D')arn straight!! I am so glad you're here. All this time I thought I was one of the few who clearly understood this. I suspect too that it's all about clinging and desire, as described by Shakyamuni 2500+ years ago. As soon as the economic decline has eaten away sufficiently to the dreams and fantasies of riches so many hold dear, and in our coming post-peak world poverty becomes generalized and widespread, this silly often repeated capitalist fantasy of wealth as a motivator will be buried.
And we can turn to managing this decline in an intelligent manner with a command system that will succeed. It's our only hope.

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'I')n the thesis of feudalism, lay its antithesis, capitalism, and in the two, their synthesis, high human community.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'C')an you explain exactly what you mean by the "high human community." It sounds exactly like a hippie commune on a fine summer's day....

[Quinny]

Planty - Have you ever read Das Kapital?

You'll struggle to find a more scientific analysis of economic behaviour anywhere. I'm not saying that economics is a precise science, but then is advanced physics?

AD - I'm still concerned that Marx's analysis (like all Economist's of his time) didn't take enough account of resource and environmental issues. His theories of the decline in the rate of return were based on the maths of the situation and didn't IIRC really take into account the massive environmental degradation that is currrently taking place. My fear is that PO and other resource constraints will kick in and prevent the inevitable transition to communism, and we will cycle back to feudalism.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'Y')ou can rant on as much as you want about about feudalism, or capital, or labor, or any other topic. But Marxist rants aren't science any more than "christian science" sermons are science, even though both christian scientists and marxists both desperately want to wrap their belief systems in the mantle of science.

[dorlomin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', '
')Adapt we shall. Marx's point was quite simple...the essence behind the whole notion of dialectic materialism being that out of the chaos that unrestrained capital will plunge this globe into, will rise an ordered communialism.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', ' ')the inevitable transition to communism

[americandream]

Quinny

Marx's analysis of capital succinctly captures its core tendency, its earnest quest for perpetual accumulation (exponential growth) as we read. One paragraph in the Communist Manifesto leapt out at me however:

"A similar movement is going on before our own eyes. Modern bourgeois society, with its relations of production, of exchange and of property, a society that has conjured up such gigantic means of production and of exchange, is like the sorcerer who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells."

To the extent that capital finally reaches an impasse within the paradigm in which it functions, apart from all the other reasons that are likley to be at fault with it, what else could this mean I wondered. After all Marx was an avowed atheist and most certainly would not have been alluding to anything of a mystical nature. What can the capitalist no longer control other than externalities...such as resourcing for example to name one. Of course, to that we now risk including climate which I admit is a contemporary cost but I am convinced that Marx's economy contemplated the resourcing cost in the contours he recommended for a society based on scientific socialism.

Intriguingly, a later paragraph adds:

"But not only has the bourgeoisie forged the weapons that bring death to itself; it has also called into existence the men who are to wield those weapons -- the modern working class -- the proletarians."

edited for clarity

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', ' ')the inevitable transition to communism

[americandream]

Instead of railing against us personally, I would be delighted if our detractors would put their cases calmly and clearly. Why, if you are of the mind that capitalism is ideally walled off into fortresses, mad maxed out or greened and have a clear and consistent case to make for so believing, then please state your case. Our criticism is system wide. We do not believe that capitalism is sustainable, redeemable in green clothes or capable of being sustained in racial nirvanas. The ball therefore lies in your court to convince us otherwise. However,assailing us to move to this or other place etc is rather pointless as our premise is to change the WHOLE world, not just one spot here or hill there.

So c'mon guys. Lets be constructibve here and argue our cause with the courage of our convictions.

[AlexdeLarge]

Lets hear from an expert on the subject.........................

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '�')��Communism is not love. Communism is a hammer which we use to crush the enemy.”

[vision-master]

At least he was honest.

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'W')e do not believe that capitalism is sustainable, redeemable in green clothes or capable of being sustained in racial nirvanas. The ball therefore lies in your court to convince us otherwise.

[sjn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'W')e do not believe that capitalism is sustainable, redeemable in green clothes or capable of being sustained in racial nirvanas. The ball therefore lies in your court to convince us otherwise.

[rangerone314]

Neither capitalism nor communism are sustainable in the future. Choosing between them is a false choice, like choosing between Rep or Dem.

There are plenty of places in Communist China that are worse than superfund sites. Ditto for Russia recovering from Soviet era...

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'W')e do not believe that capitalism is sustainable, redeemable in green clothes or capable of being sustained in racial nirvanas. The ball therefore lies in your court to convince us otherwise.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', 'N')either capitalism nor communism are sustainable in the future. Choosing between them is a false choice, like choosing between Rep or Dem.

There are plenty of places in Communist China that are worse than superfund sites. Ditto for Russia recovering from Soviet era...

[Pretorian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'W')e do not believe that capitalism is sustainable, redeemable in green clothes or capable of being sustained in racial nirvanas. The ball therefore lies in your court to convince us otherwise.

[Tanada]

The future of culture on Earth is a return to Monarchical rule, hopefully restrained by Constitutional limits and a rational populace. Pretending that the Republic or any other form of Democracy has long term stability is to ignore the reality of Human culture patterns. Very few people for very few centuries out of all of history have lived under anything but Monarchical government. Communism was intended to be the antithesis of Mercantilism/Capitalism but the ultimate Synthesis is just to return to our roots, the Monarchy in the middle.

Have no doubt the Elites in both camps have looked to their own family's future prospects, all they are waiting for is the inevitable collapse of the West which will reset both ends of the spectrum.

Interestingly enough lately I have been coming across references to the heritage of Vladimir Putin, there are now claims popping up that not only is he descended from relatives of the late Czar's family, he even physically resembles a branch of the Royal Family that was last known to live in the city his grandparents came from.

Every election cycle someone or other comes up with the Royal ancestry of the Presidential and VP candidates for the USA, for example Richard Cheney and Barack Obama have some common Noble ancestors. In the past these claims have been poo pooed by the elected officials in question, but it is not a large step for them to embrace those heritage's when the time is right.

What is more the British Royal Heir, Prince of Wales HRH Charles is very much a part of the Green movement in the UK, and both of his sons are peripherally involved as well.

[americandream]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'W')e do not believe that capitalism is sustainable, redeemable in green clothes or capable of being sustained in racial nirvanas. The ball therefore lies in your court to convince us otherwise.