Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Waterboarding Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
Post a reply

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby dinopello » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 16:49:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'S')aying that torture doesnt work is like saying that there is no gravity. Ofcourse it works. If you inflict enough pain on someone eventually he will tell you what you need to know. If he lies, then you come back and torture him more until he gives the right information. Why oh why does this not work?

Yes its barbaric, but if someone is about to murder innocent people then its more barbaric to let those people die than torture the person who is going to kill them.


What if the person doesn't know the information "you need"? You torture them, they tell you some lie to get the torture to stop, you check it out, it's not true, you torture more. At what point do you give up and say, well I guess this wasn't the guy ?

Torture is best at getting them to say what they think you want them to say. That's not always the same as what you need. Most countries that use torture regularly recognize this so the point is to exact a confession (true or false doesn't matter) or as the Vietcong did with McCain, to get him to denounce his country.
User avatar
dinopello
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6088
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: The Urban Village
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 16:58:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '
')
What if the person doesn't know the information "you need"? You torture them, they tell you some lie to get the torture to stop, you check it out, it's not true, you torture more. At what point do you give up and say, well I guess this wasn't the guy ?


Good points. Thats why the CIA has professionals at this sort of thing----it was mostly secret until Obama leaked the 4 memos so no one really has the answers to your questions. Hopefully Obama will release more info and perhaps even prosecute the torturers so we can find some of this stuff out.

From what I've read, the CIA people apparently compile enough info so
that they can ask the detainee not only questions that they don't know the answer to....they ask the detainees questions they do know the answer to and the detainee doesn't know that they know the answer.

So they not only check the answers they get under torture against other detainees answers, but they check them against their wiretap info and other intel that the detainee doesn't know they have, allowing them to judge when the detainee is telling them the truth.

Image
Last edited by Plantagenet on Thu 23 Apr 2009, 17:08:58, edited 1 time in total.
Never underestimate the ability of Joe Biden to f#@% things up---Barack Obama
-----------------------------------------------------------
Keep running between the raindrops.
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 17:08:42

How about if you managed to capture someone who had kidnapped your child. Would you be willing to torture the kidnapper to get your childs location?
I would be willing to do any number of unspeakable things to keep my children from harm.
Might not sleep well afterwards, but not a high price to pay to make your child safe.

So I do believe that sometimes torture is completely justified.

But I also think that the CIA may do it just for kicks.
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
John Prine
Hawkcreek
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sun 15 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Washington State
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby dinopello » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 17:32:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', 'H')ow about if you managed to capture someone who had kidnapped your child. Would you be willing to torture the kidnapper to get your childs location?
I would be willing to do any number of unspeakable things to keep my children from harm.
Might not sleep well afterwards, but not a high price to pay to make your child safe.

So I do believe that sometimes torture is completely justified.

But I also think that the CIA may do it just for kicks.


This was my point earlier. As an individual, you may be overcome by the passion of the moment and take revenge or do whatever that you think is 'justice'. You still are accountable to the law even if people sympathize with you. But a jury could nullify the law or a judge could pass a lenient sentence for the circumstances.

The dukakis answer is not what more Americans want. He could have said "Hell yes I would want him dead, but that is different than what the state should condone. "

Also, the question is what if you had someone that you believed, but could not know for certain knew the whereabouts of your missing child? What probablility would it take for you to torture him/her? 50% ?
User avatar
dinopello
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6088
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: The Urban Village
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby rangerone314 » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 17:35:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '
')There must have been a lot of people in Spain who were truly guilty of witchcraft, because they used waterboarding in the Inquisition to get people to confess.


Intelligence interrogations aren't about getting confessions. They are about getting information.

If a detainee just made things up, then his answers would be cross-checked against another detainee. If they didn't agree......splish splash back to the water torture.

Tthe CIA says it got valuable information from its interrogations of the detainees, stopped attacks and saved American lives. :!:


Splish splash back to the water torture... 183 times. I see how well that cycle worked for them.

The CIA says a lot of stuff. What would they say if they got no valuable information? The same thing. They have no credibility.

And personally, I don't care about human rights. If I was in a position, I'd personally pluck their eyeballs out if I thought it would prevent attacks. But I'm not, and I don't think it would.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Location: Maryland
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Munqi » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 17:43:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'S')aying that torture doesnt work is like saying that there is no gravity. Ofcourse it works. If you inflict enough pain on someone eventually he will tell you what you need to know. If he lies, then you come back and torture him more until he gives the right information. Why oh why does this not work?

Yes its barbaric, but if someone is about to murder innocent people then its more barbaric to let those people die than torture the person who is going to kill them.


What if the person doesn't know the information "you need"? You torture them, they tell you some lie to get the torture to stop, you check it out, it's not true, you torture more. At what point do you give up and say, well I guess this wasn't the guy ?

Torture is best at getting them to say what they think you want them to say. That's not always the same as what you need. Most countries that use torture regularly recognize this so the point is to exact a confession (true or false doesn't matter) or as the Vietcong did with McCain, to get him to denounce his country.


What if the person we sentence to 50 years in prison for murder didnt actually do it? What if the person we sentence to death didnt do it?

These things happen, which is why we invest heavily in our court systems so that it would be as rare as possible. For the same reason we have to investigate every case properly and then decide whether to torture or not and the whole process has to be transparent. And i think you understand that even if vietcong tortures to make people denounce their countries western countries would not do that - atleast if the whole process is open to criticism.

But yes, i do acknowledge that some day someone innocent would probably be tortured. I wish that wouldnt happen but i also realise that many people spend their lives behind bars even though they are innocent. Still you're not saying we should give up prison sentences.
User avatar
Munqi
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun 04 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Finland
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby dinopello » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 18:00:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'S')aying that torture doesnt work is like saying that there is no gravity. Ofcourse it works. If you inflict enough pain on someone eventually he will tell you what you need to know. If he lies, then you come back and torture him more until he gives the right information. Why oh why does this not work?

Yes its barbaric, but if someone is about to murder innocent people then its more barbaric to let those people die than torture the person who is going to kill them.


What if the person doesn't know the information "you need"? You torture them, they tell you some lie to get the torture to stop, you check it out, it's not true, you torture more. At what point do you give up and say, well I guess this wasn't the guy ?

Torture is best at getting them to say what they think you want them to say. That's not always the same as what you need. Most countries that use torture regularly recognize this so the point is to exact a confession (true or false doesn't matter) or as the Vietcong did with McCain, to get him to denounce his country.


What if the person we sentence to 50 years in prison for murder didnt actually do it? What if the person we sentence to death didnt do it?

These things happen, which is why we invest heavily in our court systems so that it would be as rare as possible. For the same reason we have to investigate every case properly and then decide whether to torture or not and the whole process has to be transparent. And i think you understand that even if vietcong tortures to make people denounce their countries western countries would not do that - atleast if the whole process is open to criticism..


So you are proposing we have an open court system that convicts the person of being guilty, before they are tortured ? That process would be flawed as is any human process but that would be different than what occured. I think we are talking about someone you torture to basically admit they are guilty of something. Or probably just tortured for information to find someone you suspect is guilty of something. If the CIA suspected that someone was a servant of an AlQueda guy, like a driver or something and would be able to tell them where he had driven AlQueda members he might be tortured for this suspected information. Wives and children of AlQueda members would also be prime torture subjects as they have similar information.
User avatar
dinopello
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6088
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: The Urban Village
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 18:04:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rangerone314', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')Intelligence interrogations aren't about getting confessions. They are about getting information.

If a detainee just made things up, then his answers would be cross-checked against another detainee. If they didn't agree......splish splash back to the water torture.

Tthe CIA says it got valuable information from its interrogations of the detainees, stopped attacks and saved American lives. :!:


Splish splash back to the water torture... 183 times. I see how well that cycle worked for them.

The CIA says a lot of stuff. What would they say if they got no valuable information? The same thing. They have no credibility.


We need some more transparency from Obama on this issue. He only released four documents out of thousands, so there is no way to know if Obama is lying or not when he claims torture didn't work without getting more documents released.

We do have the appraisals from past CIA people and Obama's current intelligence chief that torture worked very well, so either they are lying or Obama is lying. [smilie=dontknow.gif]
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 18:39:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')aying that torture doesnt work is like saying that there is no gravity. Ofcourse it works.


No, I'm sorry; repeating a falsehood does not make it true. Talk to people like John McCain and other American POW's who have been tortured. They will tell you flatly that it does not work. Talk to Bob Baer, a former CIA case officer. He says torture does not work. Similarly, Michael Scheuer, who headed the CIA hunt for bin Laden, agrees: "I personally think that any information gotten through extreme methods of torture would probably be pretty useless because it would be someone telling you what you wanted to hear."

Who else doesn't agree with it? The US Army:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor. condoned by the US Government. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear. However, the use of force is not to be confused with psychological ploys, verbal trickery, or other nonviolent and noncoercive ruses used by the interrogator in questioning hesitant or uncooperative sources.


- FM 34-52 Chapter 1

Maybe they are just all wrong. Along with plenty of other intelligence and military agencies and personnel. They should all bow down to your omniscience, right? If you say torture works, then we should all agree with you, despite what the experts and victims say.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.') If you inflict enough pain on someone eventually he will tell you what you need to know. If he lies, then you come back and torture him more until he gives the right information. Why oh why does this not work?


I already told you.

Let's use your hypothetical situation with a bomb in a city. With bombs or any type of attack, there is a timeline. If you torture the guy, he will give you the wrong information. Then you go chasing after that wrong information. By the time you figure out that he lied, the bomb has gone off. Whether you torture him 1 or 100 times, he'll lie every time and eventually the bomb will go off. You lose either way because you are chasing after false information.

BTW, what you're describing is exactly what we did with KSM. We waterboarded him 183 times. Why? Because it doesn't work. If it worked, it would've only been one time.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou blame people even though you know that you would have done the same.


Do you have any idea how arrogant you sound? How could you possibly know what I would do in a situation that is completely hypothetical? It's really amazing. I don't even know what I'd do yet you seem to claim to know exactly what I'd do. You aren't God so quit acting like you know everything about me.

-----

You bring up a good point about relating prison to torture, one that I hadn't thought of before. The main difference, though, is that prison and punishment has an effectiveness that torture does not. If torture were to work 100% of the time, then I think I'd probably agree with you. However, torture does not work 100% of the time or even usually. It almost never, if ever, works. Thus, there's no point to it
Last edited by 3aidlillahi on Thu 23 Apr 2009, 22:20:45, edited 2 times in total.
Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
User avatar
3aidlillahi
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue 25 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 18:45:39

Nancy Pelosi says she didn't know about water torture

Nancy pleads ignorance

Just because she was on the House Intelligence Committee and received briefings about water torture doesn't mean she knew about it..... depends on what the definition of "is" is. :roll:
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 19:31:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lso, the question is what if you had someone that you believed, but could not know for certain knew the whereabouts of your missing child? What probablility would it take for you to torture him/her? 50% ?

About 5 percent. That way I would only have to torture about 20 people (even remotely involved) to have a nearly 100 % chance of finding my kid.
Maybe that is the way the CIA figures it too.
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
John Prine
Hawkcreek
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1468
Joined: Sun 15 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Washington State
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby dinopello » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 19:51:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Hawkcreek', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lso, the question is what if you had someone that you believed, but could not know for certain knew the whereabouts of your missing child? What probablility would it take for you to torture him/her? 50% ?

About 5 percent. That way I would only have to torture about 20 people (even remotely involved) to have a nearly 100 % chance of finding my kid.
Maybe that is the way the CIA figures it too.


I hope our CIA knows probablity better than that ! :lol:
User avatar
dinopello
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6088
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: The Urban Village
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 23 Apr 2009, 20:09:42

Senator Russell Feingold, a Wisconsin Democrat, urged President Obama to reconsider and investigate the possibility of prosecuting the CIA interrogators. Obama earlier promised to protect the CIA torturers from all punishment.

Image
Ve haff vays of meeking you tok!
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Munqi » Fri 24 Apr 2009, 05:59:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', 'N')o, I'm sorry; repeating a falsehood does not make it true. Talk to people like John McCain and other American POW's who have been tortured. They will tell you flatly that it does not work. Talk to Bob Baer, a former CIA case officer. He says torture does not work. Similarly, Michael Scheuer, who headed the CIA hunt for bin Laden, agrees: "I personally think that any information gotten through extreme methods of torture would probably be pretty useless because it would be someone telling you what you wanted to hear.


It depends on what kind of information you're after. If its easily verifiable (like the location of a bomb) then there is no reason to assume that it wouldnt work. Yes okay, you might run out of time but the fact is that inflicting pain is so easy that if the terrorist is caught lying once, hes going to give you the right information the next time.

If its something like "what was the topic of the meeting of al qaeda leaders bla bla" then you cant verify it, which means that torture should not be used in these types of situations. Again, this is exactly we need to make sure that there is someone controlling the whole process just like there is someone handing out sentences in court.
User avatar
Munqi
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun 04 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Finland
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Fri 24 Apr 2009, 06:16:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')hes going to give you the right information the next time.


If torture worked as well as you think, then KSM wouldn't have had to be tortured 183 times. Thus, you are wrong. Again, don't listen to me. Listen to CIA, FBI, the US Army, interrogators, etc. They all say you are flat wrong. Torture does not work.
Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
User avatar
3aidlillahi
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue 25 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Munqi » Fri 24 Apr 2009, 06:42:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')hes going to give you the right information the next time.


If torture worked as well as you think, then KSM wouldn't have had to be tortured 183 times. Thus, you are wrong. Again, don't listen to me. Listen to CIA, FBI, the US Army, interrogators, etc. They all say you are flat wrong. Torture does not work.



I dont know the details of this particular case and i dont even care because it doesnt matter. The fact that in this case it didnt work does not prove that it never works. And quite frankly, if the CIA, FBI and the US army have said those things then i believe they were politically motivated. Besides, didnt plantagenet just tell us that the CIA did in fact get results with it?

Im going to ask you this one last time. If i get another bullshit answer then i'll just leave. If being "right" is more important to you than finding out the truth then theres no point in talking to you.

You're a CIA agent. You catch a terrorist who has planted a bomb in a place where it will kill a hundred people one week from now. You have no other leads so the only way to get to that bomb is to torture the terrorist.

Do you a) order 100 caskets or b) torture the man, waste an hour searching a place where he lied that the bomb would be, come back and torture him even more, find the bomb and save a hundred people and then meet the president who'll give you a shiny medal for your bravery?
User avatar
Munqi
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun 04 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Finland
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby dinopello » Fri 24 Apr 2009, 06:47:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')hes going to give you the right information the next time.


If torture worked as well as you think, then KSM wouldn't have had to be tortured 183 times. Thus, you are wrong. Again, don't listen to me. Listen to CIA, FBI, the US Army, interrogators, etc. They all say you are flat wrong. Torture does not work.


Whether it works or not is one part of the debate. If we assume it does work, then it probably should be used in domestic cases as well, right ? Like the kidnapped child that was brought up earlier. What could be more important than finding the location of a kidnapped child before any harm comes? Or child molestors. If a child accuses a guy of molestation, we could torture him to get him to confess. Or maybe someone with a stockpile of guns. Torture them to see if he's planning to go postal on us. Actually we might as well waterboard everyone since its not even torture and isn't even all that unpleasan according to some.
User avatar
dinopello
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6088
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00
Location: The Urban Village
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Fri 24 Apr 2009, 06:52:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o you a) order 100 caskets or b) torture the man, waste an hour searching a place where he lied that the bomb would be, come back and torture him even more, find the bomb and save a hundred people and then meet the president who'll give you a shiny medal for your bravery?


In real life, I don't torture. The bomb is going to go off anyway so I'm not going put someone through cruel and inhumane treatment. I've already shown you plenty of CIA, FBI, the US Army personnel who have said that torture does not work.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd quite frankly, if the CIA, FBI and the US army have said those things then i believe they were politically motivated.


So in other words, you think you know more than the experts. You will simply discount another's opinion if it isn't the same as yours. Another's opinion is only valid if they agree with you. That is just idiotic and childish and proves that you don't care about the truth. You only want to be right. You can't stand being wrong so you'll ignore all information that is to the contrary of what you believe.

I think that says everything there is to know about you.

Is there any way in which one could convince you that torture does not work? Apparently, the words of experts and real life cases don't work. So what would it take to convince you that it doesn't work? It appears that your mind is fixed that it does work and there is nothing in this world that can change that.

My mind, however, is open. If one were able to prove that torture works, then I'd reconsider my position on it for use in extreme circumstances. However, you've, or anyone, yet to be able to do that. You simply dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you and you keep repeating what you're saying. You have nothing to back you up while I have a host of sources and real life cases that show your position is wrong.
Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
User avatar
3aidlillahi
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue 25 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Fri 24 Apr 2009, 06:58:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hether it works or not is one part of the debate.


Yes, it's one part. However, if it's proven that it doesn't work, then the debate stops there. There's no point in torturing unless it is proven to work. Since it's unproven and so many agencies and ex-CIA, FBI, military officers have come out against it, I don't think the debate on the actual use of it should extend any further.
Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
User avatar
3aidlillahi
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1416
Joined: Tue 25 Mar 2008, 03:00:00
Top

Re: CIA waterboarded one individual 183 times in a month

Unread postby Munqi » Fri 24 Apr 2009, 09:30:35

Ok im done. :arrow:
User avatar
Munqi
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 288
Joined: Sun 04 May 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Finland
Top
PreviousNext
Post a reply

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests