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Middle ground between believers & deniers

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 14:18:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '.').. you gleefully tout how you're gaining maximum benefit from the system without inputting very much.
I hear you saying that my delight in finding a country that supports voluntary simplicity is the problem. I am sorry to have offended you, for you to take offense at my "glee."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')aid differently, you put in much less than you extract.
How is this different from buying a winning lottery ticket? I don't know if you play the lottery, but assuming one did, and one kept track of income versus expense, and then boasted that they won more than they lost, would that "glee" also be wrong?

And what about an oil exploration company, who through subsidies such as "depletion allowances" is extracting (literally) much more than they put in?

And what of all the businesses that incessantly "venue shop" for the municipality that will give them the biggest tax break for locating in their community? Their accountants carefully determine where to locate, based on the best tax situation, and as soon as that changes, they split, leaving "brownfields" behind, that the government has to clean up. Do I deserve more scorn than these "gleeful" companies that take more than they give?

But let's make this even greener: what about a company working on alternative energy systems, such as wind turbines -- what if they are enjoying a subsidy?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.').. the point is, the only reason the system exists is because other people aren't freeloading like you.


I'm sorry you choose to use such loaded language. The people, through their elected representatives, choose to subsidize behaviour they wish to encourage. These subsidies generally go toward encouraging resource extraction and something of dubious value called "job creation," which seems to be a euphemism for turning natural resources into garbage.

Why should I not be "gleeful" to find an enlightened people who choose to subsidize simple living?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f everybody did what you did, then there would be virtually NO medical care in Canada.


If everybody chose to be "productive" in the conventional sense, the planet would be running out of resources and swimming in pollution. Oh, wait, they do, and we are... :-)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.').. if you're going to be on the "inputting very little/using much more than my share" part of the spectrum, at least don't be so damn glib about it.


So again, it seems to come down to my joy in my work, rather than what I am actually doing, that causes you grief.

I am joyous every time it takes four months to get a single bag of garbage together for the dump (while thinking, "five months, next time!)

I am joyous every egg I eat that comes from free-range hens who are keeping insects out of our orchard and fertilizing our trees.

I am joyous every time I take a dump and know that the resources loaned to my body by this wonderful planet will be returned to the soil to grow more food in a year.

And I am joyous, gleeful, and yes, perhaps a bit "glib" to be living in a country that supports such work by providing me -- perhaps temporarily -- with heath care, while I do such "work."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou're like the guy on disability holding a sign as taxpayers drive to work every morning saying, "I get paid for nothing."


Ah, I can see you've never lived on a subsistence farm! You should try it -- we have an apprentice program! After supplying much of your own food and energy, I doubt you'd compare yourself with someone who "gets paid for nothing."

In fact, our goal is to remove ourselves from the cash economy as much as possible. We don't want to "get paid for nothing" -- hell, we don't even want to get paid! At least not in the conventional sense.

I "got paid" last week, when I put 200 trees in the ground. I'll get paid next month when our goats kid. And yes, I gratefully accept as thanks for my simple life-style, "getting paid" to go to the doctor now and then. I always combine it with several other errands, to make our home-brew biodiesel last longer.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.').. my soon-to-be return to simplicity and low income living is me opting out - unlike you who maintains all benefits without putting in.


I'm impressed that you know so much about me in such a short time. If by "all benefits" you mean clean water, clean air, good organic food, and minimal involvement from the State, then I plead guilty.

But somehow, I think you have painted some other, more nefarious picture of me in your own mind. I'm feeling sad that you seem to have such a need to judge others, while your "soon-to-be return to simplicity" seems to consist mainly of running down others for doing what you only dream about.

I have a clear conscience about the benefits I am getting. They don't come without cost to me, and I provide benefits to greater society, as well. Sorry you can't see that.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 14:29:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'I')'d much rather my taxes (if I have to pay them at all) went to supporting someone like Jan than to paying for bombs and lavish lifestyles for crooks.


Thank you, Shannymara, for your understanding and support.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he people gaming the system at the top (not those gaming it at the bottom), and the system itself, are the real problem.


I probably get a thousand or three a year in subsidy, if you count what health insurance might cost and the GST kickback checks we get. (Remember, a sales tax kickback on A Very Small Amount is still A Very Small Amount.)

It feels hurtful to be attacked for this meagre subsidy for having a small planetary footprint while the finance industry has recently been given trillions because they're "too big to fail."

(And while we're on the case of "freeloaders," how could I have forgotten the many thousands of dollars every mortgage-slave in the US receives every year? A person with a $300,000 home loan is taking much more out of the system than I do. But a subsidy you get is always okay -- it's the subsidies others get that are the problem!)

I think someone needs to read E. F. Schumacher.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 16:35:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', '
')I probably get a thousand or three a year in subsidy,.



I'm almost as much of a "freeloader" as you are, thanks to Texas' Open Space Property Tax classification. We pay approximately $2000 less on our property taxes thanks to this program meant to preserve larger tracts of land in Texas. :)

There are plenty of legal ways to avoid taxes. Because they are legal, and almost certainly not harmful to others, I'm not really seeing the problem of benefiting by them.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 00:33:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '
')5. America is made up of subgroups not present in Canada that have a much shorter life expectancy.
You make it sound like Nazi Germany.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 00:50:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'A')s far as scamming on part time farming he is in for a surpise. If you run a business in Canada, you cannot continually operate at a loss and expect to writedown income year after year. You have about 5 years to show a reasonable expectation of making some taxable income.
That's only if you're writing off losses on a hobby farm against other income. If he's just breaking even on his farm he should have no problem.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 00:53:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', 'I')t's too bad we cannot trade citizenships.


I don't want to move to Canada. I'm just saying. If you're going to play dueling healthcare systems, it's no contest. The American system costs several times more and people live 2 year shorter lives. I'd go crazy if I had to live in Canada though. Everyone is just too blessed nice. I don't ever trust nice people. I figure they're being nice because they're trying to sucker me into doing something dumb.
But, you're the second nicest person on peakoil.com .
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby odegaard » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 00:58:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', 'T')here also seems to be some jealousy expressed here, and judgement that what I am doing is wrong, based upon comments about Revenue Canada and losing farm status. Too bad.


You've completely missed the point.

The point is that you gleefully tout how you're gaining maximum benefit from the system without inputting very much.

Said differently, you put in much less than you extract.

Well done. You're beating the system.

But the point is, the only reason the system exists is because other people aren't freeloading like you.
...
Look at Bytesmiths's signature. She proudly "claims" to be an environmentalist.
You know what's funny? I always thought that the fundamental basis of environmentalism was sustainability.

What can be more unsustainable then the belief in "gaining maximum benefit from the system without inputting very much." and being proud of it too!

WOW - what a contradiction.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 01:21:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sameu', 'h')éhé in belgium it's about 50%
and i would be ok with the system IF there was an opt-out


Its called emigration. But you don't want to leave a warm tit, right?
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Blacksmith » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 01:35:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pretorian', 'I')ts called emigration. But you don't want to leave a warm tit, right?


But, Bytesmith emigrated to the warm tit.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 01:50:30

I don't understand why when anybody is talking about free/socialized healthcare Canada always in the topic with all its taxes, negative sides, ets, somehow linked to free healthcare. In Argentina a good half of working people don't pay any income taxes , and another half pays about 3% for healthcare. Its enough to provide entire country with free healthcare. You dont have to show any freaking insurance card or even an ID to get a surgery, hospitalization, doctors visit, ets, ets , ets.
Oh but they do live about 18 months less than average americans I guess it xplains it all.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 01:57:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', 'T')here also seems to be some jealousy expressed here, and judgement that what I am doing is wrong, based upon comments about Revenue Canada and losing farm status. Too bad.


You've completely missed the point.

The point is that you gleefully tout how you're gaining maximum benefit from the system without inputting very much.

Said differently, you put in much less than you extract.

Well done. You're beating the system.

But the point is, the only reason the system exists is because other people aren't freeloading like you.
...
Look at Bytesmiths's signature. She proudly "claims" to be an environmentalist.
You know what's funny? I always thought that the fundamental basis of environmentalism was sustainability.

What can be more unsustainable then the belief in "gaining maximum benefit from the system without inputting very much." and being proud of it too!

WOW - what a contradiction.



In a system which is not sustainable, it'll be pretty dumb to make personal sacrifice to make it "' less "unsustainable. It is unsustainable, period. It'll be even dumber to be proud of it
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby bencole » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 02:16:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', '
')
I would suggest that the only Canadians you have ever met are either from Ontaio or the Maritimes and the only reason they are nice to you is to get your money so they can pay for medicare.


A ridiculous generalization.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ') Quebecois are just plain rude


Untrue, once again a ridiculous generalization. Most likey coming from a person who knows nothing of different people and places in Canada.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Westerners are too busy paying for the rest of Canada.



What a joke if I ever heard one. The rest of Canada is paying a severe price to subsidize Alberta's tar sands industry, just so Alberta can sell subsidized syncrude to the americans as fast as they can to keep their consumption habits up, and at the same time depleting the remaining natural gas we need to heat our homes.. Alberta has already been bailed out once before by the rest of Canada when oil prices crashed in the 1980's and that idiot Stelmach and the rest of those idiots you call a government out there are leading Alberta down the exact same path of boom and bust. I have a feeling Eastern Canada will be bailing out Alberta again very shortly because of the current low oil prices.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 03:13:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', 'W')hat can be more unsustainable then the belief in "gaining maximum benefit from the system without inputting very much." and being proud of it too!

WOW - what a contradiction.


You should be more careful with your attributions. I certainly never wrote what you have inside quote marks.

But it's good to have finally met someone who popped out of the womb and was completely self-sufficient, who never gained "maximum benefit" from his mother without "inputting very much" to her. And the same goes for schooling -- how wonderful to have never been a burden to those childless taxpayers who are forced to support the school system. And the same for using the roads -- it must be great to not use any form of transportation, and thus be a burden to volunteers who serve on commissions that plan such things.

Yes, I'm proud -- proud to live in a country that recognizes that there are many more ways to contribute to society than what is taken out of your paycheck.

Part of this is a personal attack, and all I can say is I have a clear conscience. I serve on our public transportation commission and the boards of three non-profits. I logged nearly 500 hours of volunteer time last year. That's one-quarter of a full-time job -- more than many pay in taxes. I think I earn my keep (and my health care) around here.

But the bigger issue is the incredible small-mindedness of those who are afraid that someone less off is somehow taking advantage of them.

In First Nations groups of this area, the person with the most power was the one who gave away the most. But by the looks of many of the comments here, we have become a niggardly, "I got mine, so screw you!" society. And I despair for how such people will react to hard times. Because when they lose their job, when they lose their house, when they're hungry, they'll be expecting to get just what they dished out. And that will be sad.

This thread is about "the vanishing middle ground," and boy, some of you sure are good examples!
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Blacksmith » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 04:51:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bencole', 'A')lberta has already been bailed out once before by the rest of Canada when oil prices crashed in the 1980's and that idiot Stelmach and the rest of those idiots you call a government out there are leading Alberta down the exact same path of boom and bust. I have a feeling Eastern Canada will be bailing out Alberta again very shortly because of the current low oil prices.


Yea, I remember that bailout, right after the National Energy Policy (grand theft Trudeau).
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby odegaard » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 11:53:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', 'W')hat can be more unsustainable then the belief in "gaining maximum benefit from the system without inputting very much." and being proud of it too!

WOW - what a contradiction.
You should be more careful with your attributions. I certainly never wrote what you have inside quote marks.
I Never said it was your quote.
I was quoting Schmuto.
You seem to enjoy falsely accusing people.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', 'B')ut it's good to have finally met someone who popped out of the womb and was completely self-sufficient, who never gained "maximum benefit" from his mother without "inputting very much" to her. And the same goes for schooling -- how wonderful to have never been a burden to those childless taxpayers who are forced to support the school system. And the same for using the roads -- it must be great to not use any form of transportation, and thus be a burden to volunteers who serve on commissions that plan such things.
What a STRAWMAN argument.

Who's attacking who here? No shortages of logical fallacy and false accusations.
It is clear you did not come here for an honest discussion.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby odegaard » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 12:50:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', 'I')n the early 1980's, I worked as an engineer in an auto parts plant in Indiana, and visited a sister factory in Ontario, same company. My counterpart there could not afford to own both a car and a house, as a young married man. He owned a car, an older Camaro, and his parents owned a house where he and his wife lived. He was a sensible, frugal fellow, very careful with his money. He made about $20,000 Canadian at the time, and I made about $28,000 US then, with all medical insurance paid. With an exchange rate of 70 %, his wages were about $14,000 US--half what I made. He visited our plant, and read newspaper ads, went to stores here and saw that prices were the same or less in the US compared to what he was used to in Canada. Very tough times for him there. He moved to Vancouver and did a lot better soon after that, but the taxes still ate up about half his income, if I remember rightly.

I think things have gotten better for the Canadians since then, and truly hope so. Fine people that I respect a lot. But I do not wish to live under their system of taxation.
I've never lived outside of the USA but I have heard plenty of stories from people, mainly from relatives who've lived in western Europe for awhile.
Can I say this without inciting a rebellion? MOST Americans are *ignorant* of how good they have it.

From a distance Europe (I assume Canada has a similar standard of living) seems like it's one step ahead of us.
We are constantly reminded by the media of the pretty high speed trains, universal health care, and generous social welfare unheard of in the USA. However the biggest difference is disposable income. Europeans just don't have it.

This glaring difference shows up in every aspect of a person's life from the size of their house, number of cars if any, how many times they can afford to go to the shopping mall. One of the biggest culture shocks that a foreigner gets when they come to the USA is the shear quantity of material possessions Americans have and our ability to replace them with newer ones. Houses in Europe are half the size. Even a person of low status like a garbage man can afford to live in a single family detached house in the USA. In Britain it is not uncommon for even doctors, lawyers, and engineers to live in row houses.
Imagine if you visited a hypothetical foreign country where everybody lived in houses twice the size, have twice as many material possessions, and they replace them twice as often. It would make for an interesting culture shock huh? :)
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby vision-master » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 12:55:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')rom a distance Europe (I assume Canada has a similar standard of living) seems like it's one step ahead of us.
We are constantly reminded by the media of the pretty high speed trains, universal health care, and generous social welfare unheard of in the USA. However the biggest difference is disposable income. Europeans just don't have it.



So you can buy more China shit but have no health insurance?

Help me with this?
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby odegaard » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 13:09:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')rom a distance Europe (I assume Canada has a similar standard of living) seems like it's one step ahead of us.
We are constantly reminded by the media of the pretty high speed trains, universal health care, and generous social welfare unheard of in the USA. However the biggest difference is disposable income. Europeans just don't have it.



So you can buy more China shit but have no health insurance?

Help me with this?
8)
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 16:31:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('odegaard', 'T')his glaring difference shows up in every aspect of a person's life from the size of their house, number of cars if any, how many times they can afford to go to the shopping mall... the shear quantity of material possessions Americans have and our ability to replace them with newer ones.
And this is good because?

Forgive me if I misunderstand -- you seem to be touchy about interpretations of your writing -- but it seems to me that the things you cite as evidence of superiority of US culture are the very things that are pushing humanity over the edge of sustainable human life on this planet.

It seems to me that those who criticize me for living off the labour of others are perfectly willing to live off the labour -- and perhaps very lives -- of future generations!

How many cars does one need? How big does one's house need to be? How much cheap plastic crap from China makes life better?

I think if you'd poll those "doctors living in row houses" about their level of happiness and satisfaction with life, you'd find them every bit as happy and satisfied -- perhaps more so -- than those in similar professions in the US, who have bought the myth that more cars, bigger houses, and more stuff makes one's life better.

I categorically reject that view, but recognize that I'm an outlier.
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Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Tue 21 Apr 2009, 17:30:42

And yet there appears to be a relatively strong correlation between happiness and affluence.

Image

You might be an exception to the this trend but most people like having stuff.

More importantly, people like having the freedom to do what they want with what they earn. That matters more than anything. More freedom leads to more happiness and less freedom to less happiness.

Image

And of course, more economic freedom means more economic growth.

Image

Conclusion:

The freer people are, the richer and happier they will be.
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