[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', 'T')here you go, proof positive that suburbia can feed itself. By the way Narz, why don't you post some pictures of your garden? The rest of us would love to see the results of your efforts.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')I live in a apartment complex, all the land is landscaped.

[Homesteader]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Homesteader', 'T')here you go, proof positive that suburbia can feed itself. By the way Narz, why don't you post some pictures of your garden? The rest of us would love to see the results of your efforts.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')You should move then while you can.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')I live in a apartment complex, all the land is landscaped.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'T')he Last Middle Grounder.

[patience]

I don't have a clue whether I am a moderate or what. Don't know the definitions. I do think the US is going to crash pretty hard, and the financial portion of that seems to be leading the way. I expect that our govt will muck up whatever problems come along, favor their banking buddies, corporate donaters, etc., to the detriment of everyone else. If credit for business goes down, we have a big problem, and soon. I expect that to lead to govt's inflating away all they can, making us all poorer. I expect to work as long as I live, since the Social Security I just signed up for will probably be inflated away.

I think we'll have petroleum products, at constantly increasing prices, for a long time yet. As a mechanical engineer who has delved into alternatives, I'm certain there are no techno-fixes for depleting oil, gas, and minerals. Anybody know what happens when we run short of easily obtainable tungsten, cobalt, vanadium, etc.? Well, it gets more difficult to make and machine the steel and other metals we are so used to being really cheap. And as the cost of energy goes up, the cost of producing those metals, even from recyclables, goes up dramatically. Think manufacturing costs doubling with some regularity, relative to incomes. There's a big gotcha waiting in this area.

Plastics are made from oil and NG, so they are going way the heck up in price to the point of not being economical for a lot of present uses. Think plastic bags, food wrap, appliance parts, on and on. Our disposable lifestyle is going to change soon.

I think we will regress from our present lifestyle on a continuum of change from the present back through history to the point that we can be sustainable. I don't think the planet can support nearly as many people as exist now, and even less as climate worsens. How long this takes is a complex question I can't answer, but being at retirement age, I think it will be in my lifetime. I don't see major cities as sustainable very many years into the future without major changes that will be traumatic. From what I've seen of city people, they will mostly stay where they are, with some wandering away and causing trouble. I don't see Mad Max as happening soon without something like all out nuclear war.

Am I doomer? Moderate? Not a cornucopian, for certain. And My crystal ball just shows reflections.

edit: When I got a driver's license in 1963, I would never have believed that a gas fill-up would cost more now than a skilled tradesman made then all week. Thus, as the situation changes and plays out, I reserve the right to change my mind. Adaptability is a virtue, I think.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', ' ')People will adapt, or they won't

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', 'A')daptability is a virtue, I think.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', ' ')I can't think too much about others, it's too stressful.

[Narz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') can't help it. Maybe it's my latent "mother instinct." It's the reason I'm on this board, to try to help other people.

[Canuk]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', 'I') don't have a clue whether I am a moderate or what. Don't know the definitions. I do think the US is going to crash pretty hard, and the financial portion of that seems to be leading the way. I expect that our govt will muck up whatever problems come along, favor their banking buddies, corporate donaters, etc., to the detriment of everyone else. If credit for business goes down, we have a big problem, and soon. I expect that to lead to govt's inflating away all they can, making us all poorer. I expect to work as long as I live, since the Social Security I just signed up for will probably be inflated away.

[jtmorgan61]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PStarr', 'W')hen 100 million Indians/Bangladeshis deplete their shallow water wells and run out of irrigation diesel will that affect your next meal out? How about that Chilean phospate mine? Will it operate when the Chileans are hungry and angry.

[davep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('davep', 'T')he question then becomes "Can we produce a given quantity of food without recourse to as much energy as we do now?" and the answer is obviously yes. So Liebig's Law is incorrectly appropriated in his argument. It's not as simple as saying that we used a phantom energy source and therefore we are in overshoot.

[Ludi]

As Monte has pointed out a gazillion times, we need more than just food to survive. We don't in fact know if there is enough fresh water available to 6 billion people without the benefit of petroleum products. We don't know if there are sufficient biological waste sinks for 6 billion people. It's not just about feeding people!

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'H')ere's my garden in the current drought:



Where's the food?


Do you see why I'm a little doomy lately?

[Ludi]

Here's my other garden, the one that survived the drought (so far) just so folks don't get too discouraged!



I do have to admit I was literally crying over the big garden, when I finally had to give up the losing battle.

[lper100km]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', '
')I don't plan on growing a garden ever.
cube's "food strategy" ---> cannibalism.
I'll NEVER run out of food.

BTW I'm a doomer in case anybody hasn't noticed.