Peak Oil
Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Middle ground between believers & deniers

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
Post a reply

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sun 19 Apr 2009, 00:02:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'O')ne thing the author fails to note is that Taxes in Canada consume more of the middle class budget than Food, Clothing, Housing and Transportation combined. http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/04/the-vanishing-middle-ground/
Isn't it much the same in all countries where neo-liberal trickle down policies have been fashionable? The rich get richer while the other 99% get screwed.

Where do you get these tax statistics? Sounds like something from the Fraser Institute or other astroturf shills.
Facebook knows you're a dog.
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7344
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby deMolay » Sun 19 Apr 2009, 09:02:22

Let me guess you live in Canada, and you haven't figured out your own tax bill yet? Do you know how much of your property/money is confiscated in taxes each year in Canada?
"We Are All Travellers, From The Sweet Grass To The Packing House, From Birth To Death, We Wander Between The Two Eternities". An Old Cowboy.
User avatar
deMolay
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby sameu » Sun 19 Apr 2009, 16:20:16

héhé in belgium it's about 50%
and i would be ok with the system IF there was an opt-out
User avatar
sameu
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu 18 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Belgium, Europe
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 19 Apr 2009, 18:08:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', 'W')here's Nickel when you need a foaming at the mouth nationalist to jump in and defend a place?


He has to take a break to recharge his foam glands every so often. :)
User avatar
Plantagenet
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 26765
Joined: Mon 09 Apr 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby mainframe » Sun 19 Apr 2009, 21:27:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Schmuto', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'O')ne thing the author fails to note is that Taxes in Canada consume more of the middle class budget than Food, Clothing, Housing and Transportation combined. http://www2.macleans.ca/2009/02/04/the-vanishing-middle-ground/


Symptoms of the oil age include . . .

. . . the myth of the middle class. That a man was worth more than the pittance his daily labor was worth.

Why?

Because oil allowed him to extend his production beyond his body. Without that energy, he's just another 2 legged animal who can pick the cotton, drag the wood, move the rocks.


There has been a mercantile class since long before the age of oil. And many of them were considerably wealthy. The use of oil has just artificially expanded the size of the middle class.
User avatar
mainframe
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu 12 Jul 2007, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sun 19 Apr 2009, 21:42:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', ' ')I would suggest the average Canadian has better health than the average American


You would certainly not be alone in suggesting that. The average Canadian has a life expectancy 2 years longer than the average American.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')but if you have to go in for surgery you will have to wait in a very long line, if your over eighty the line seems to get longer. There are few specialists and a very large nember of our medical school graduates head for the USA upon graduation.


This is the discrepancy between a market based medical system and a rational medical system. In a market based medical system, 80 year olds get surgeries right and left, everyone sees a hand surgeon when they get a hang nail etc. In a rational medical system it is recognized doing more surgeries often means worse overall health not better overall health, especially when the patient is already elderly and in frail health. It is likewise recognized that specialist are expensive, overutilized, and generally don't do anything that a generalist couldn't have done for half the price.

The bottom line is that Canadians have a better healthcare system and live longer. Meanwhile the Canadian government pays much less per Canadian citizen for healthcare than the US government does per US citizen (that's not even considering all the money that individuals and insurance companies pump into the US health industry). I don't think that necessarily means that we can just import the Canadian system into the US. IMHO, socialized medicine in the US would almost certainly be contracted out to Halliburton who would spend billions of dollars figuring out more and more inventive ways to do nothing. Doctors would spend all day everyday filling out paperwork and absolutely no one would take care of the sick people. If you want to pit the two against each other though, there's just no contest. The Canadian system is WAY better.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
User avatar
smallpoxgirl
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7258
Joined: Mon 08 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 01:23:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', 'I') do not wish to live under their system of taxation.


That's because you choose to pay taxes!

For those who choose subsistence, the Canadian system of taxation is more better. In the US, I got taxed 15% for making as little as $1, thanks to Social Security. Income taxes kicked in at around $7,500, as I recall.

In Canada, I can earn up to about $18,000 and pay no taxes. In fact, I get a kickback on the sales tax I pay! And in BC, I get enhanced health care that costs extra if you make over $18,000.

And as a small business person in Canada, I can gross as much as $30,000 and not have to deal with sales tax, whereas in the US, the first $1 I take in as a small business basically costs a near-full-time employee, just to deal with tax issues.

I haven't earned over $12,000 in a decade, but I am much better off making so little in Canada than I ever was in the US.

In a future where a subsistence life-style is more sustainable, Canada definitely supports subsistence better. We produce much of our own food and energy -- in the US, we were considered "poor," in Canada (at least the part I live in), we are looked up to as "frugal." In fact, my biggest income source last year was teaching people these skills, as a Permaculture instructor and consultant!

If your vision of a secure future means a single career, single job, single employer, and paying cash for everything, then perhaps Canada is not the best place to be, because you'll be helping to support the likes of me, through excellent, free health care, and lack of interference from bureaucracy.

But in such a case, keep in mind that a single career, single job, or single employer is nothing but fiscal monoculture, and even though you can point to your cash flow and claim to be better off than me, you're just a couple paychecks away from being homeless and on the dole, whereas I can lose several of my multiple tiny revenue streams and still be able to afford toilet paper and property taxes.

Psst! It ain't the country; it's the life-style that will get you through the coming hard times.
:::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
User avatar
Bytesmiths
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 730
Joined: Wed 27 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 01:29:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'D')o you know how much of your property/money is confiscated in taxes each year in Canada?


Basically, pretty close to zero. Our single biggest expenses is property tax, which, as agricultural land in active production, is taxed about 1/8th that of residential property.
:::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
User avatar
Bytesmiths
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 730
Joined: Wed 27 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Blacksmith » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 02:09:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('patience', 'I') do not wish to live under their system of taxation.


That's because you choose to pay taxes!

For those who choose subsistence, the Canadian system of taxation is more better. In the US, I got taxed 15% for making as little as $1, thanks to Social Security. Income taxes kicked in at around $7,500, as I recall.

In Canada, I can earn up to about $18,000 and pay no taxes. In fact, I get a kickback on the sales tax I pay! And in BC, I get enhanced health care that costs extra if you make over $18,000.

And as a small business person in Canada, I can gross as much as $30,000 and not have to deal with sales tax, whereas in the US, the first $1 I take in as a small business basically costs a near-full-time employee, just to deal with tax issues.

I haven't earned over $12,000 in a decade, but I am much better off making so little in Canada than I ever was in the US.

In a future where a subsistence life-style is more sustainable, Canada definitely supports subsistence better. We produce much of our own food and energy -- in the US, we were considered "poor," in Canada (at least the part I live in), we are looked up to as "frugal." In fact, my biggest income source last year was teaching people these skills, as a Permaculture instructor and consultant!

If your vision of a secure future means a single career, single job, single employer, and paying cash for everything, then perhaps Canada is not the best place to be, because you'll be helping to support the likes of me, through excellent, free health care, and lack of interference from bureaucracy.

But in such a case, keep in mind that a single career, single job, or single employer is nothing but fiscal monoculture, and even though you can point to your cash flow and claim to be better off than me, you're just a couple paychecks away from being homeless and on the dole, whereas I can lose several of my multiple tiny revenue streams and still be able to afford toilet paper and property taxes.

Psst! It ain't the country; it's the life-style that will get you through the coming hard times.


I quote deMolay
Canada has a population of 33M people of which about 16M are actual taxpayers. The rest are too rich, too poor, too young, disabled etc. The total Public debt is around 4 Trillion dollars. Probably the average family is worse off than the USA. Yes we have Universal Healthcare, Universal this and that. All of our social systems are broke and unfunded liabilities just like in the US. In the end there are no free lunches. We also have a criminal level of taxation to pay for it all.

Quess where Bytesmith fits in?
Employed senior
Blacksmith
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Sun 13 May 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Athabasca, Alberta
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Blacksmith » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 02:13:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'T')he Canadian system is WAY better.


It's too bad we cannot trade citizenships.
Employed senior
Blacksmith
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Sun 13 May 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Athabasca, Alberta
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 02:52:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', 'I')t's too bad we cannot trade citizenships.


I don't want to move to Canada. I'm just saying. If you're going to play dueling healthcare systems, it's no contest. The American system costs several times more and people live 2 year shorter lives. I'd go crazy if I had to live in Canada though. Everyone is just too blessed nice. I don't ever trust nice people. I figure they're being nice because they're trying to sucker me into doing something dumb.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
User avatar
smallpoxgirl
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 7258
Joined: Mon 08 Nov 2004, 04:00:00
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Blacksmith » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 05:13:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'I')'d go crazy if I had to live in Canada though. Everyone is just too blessed nice. I don't ever trust nice people. I figure they're being nice because they're trying to sucker me into doing something dumb.


I would suggest that the only Canadians you have ever met are either from Ontaio or the Maritimes and the only reason they are nice to you is to get your money so they can pay for medicare. Quebecois are just plain rude and Westerners are too busy paying for the rest of Canada.
Employed senior
Blacksmith
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Sun 13 May 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Athabasca, Alberta
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby deMolay » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 07:05:22

It is obvious that Byetsmith will be getting a visit from Revenue Canada. Because even a man living in a cardboard box under the freeway in Canada pays taxes. We have over 100 different types of taxes. I don't know what part of Canada he lives in, because here in Alberta you start paying income taxes at about 10,500 dollars per year. He is leaving out all the other taxes like GST/PST. Some Provinces have as much 15% GST/PST on every item you buy at source. For example if he uses gasoline he is paying about 45% of the cost of a gallon of gas in taxes. Canada is one of the most heavily taxed countries in the western world. Taxes in Canada have risen 1780% since 1961. As far as scamming on part time farming he is in for a surpise. If you run a business in Canada, you cannot continually operate at a loss and expect to writedown income year after year. You have about 5 years to show a reasonable expectation of making some taxable income. They just haven't audited him yet. But eventually they will get around to him. And he will have to pay a whack of backtaxes. Somebody is giving him very bad tax advice.
"We Are All Travellers, From The Sweet Grass To The Packing House, From Birth To Death, We Wander Between The Two Eternities". An Old Cowboy.
User avatar
deMolay
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2671
Joined: Sun 04 Sep 2005, 03:00:00
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Blacksmith » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 08:54:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('deMolay', 'I')t is obvious that Byetsmith will be getting a visit from Revenue Canada. Because even a man living in a cardboard box under the freeway in Canada pays taxes. We have over 100 different types of taxes. I don't know what part of Canada he lives in, because here in Alberta you start paying income taxes at about 10,500 dollars per year. He is leaving out all the other taxes like GST/PST. Some Provinces have as much 15% GST/PST on every item you buy at source. For example if he uses gasoline he is paying about 45% of the cost of a gallon of gas in taxes. Canada is one of the most heavily taxed countries in the western world. Taxes in Canada have risen 1780% since 1961. As far as scamming on part time farming he is in for a surpise. If you run a business in Canada, you cannot continually operate at a loss and expect to writedown income year after year. You have about 5 years to show a reasonable expectation of making some taxable income. They just haven't audited him yet. But eventually they will get around to him. And he will have to pay a whack of backtaxes. Somebody is giving him very bad tax advice.


Even better they might classify him as a hobby farm. Watch him head bak to the States.
Employed senior
Blacksmith
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Sun 13 May 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Athabasca, Alberta
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 09:29:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', 'I')t's too bad we cannot trade citizenships.


I don't want to move to Canada. I'm just saying. If you're going to play dueling healthcare systems, it's no contest. The American system costs several times more and people live 2 year shorter lives. I'd go crazy if I had to live in Canada though. Everyone is just too blessed nice. I don't ever trust nice people. I figure they're being nice because they're trying to sucker me into doing something dumb.



It's that Nordic stock SPG. :oops:
vision-master
 
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Schmuto » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 11:02:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Blacksmith', 'I')t's too bad we cannot trade citizenships.


I don't want to move to Canada. I'm just saying. If you're going to play dueling healthcare systems, it's no contest. The American system costs several times more and people live 2 year shorter lives. I'd go crazy if I had to live in Canada though. Everyone is just too blessed nice. I don't ever trust nice people. I figure they're being nice because they're trying to sucker me into doing something dumb.


Typical narrow-minded doctor way of viewing things.

They live 2 years longer so, accordingly, they have better health care?

That's your opinion?

Here are, just to throw this out, at least 6 other possible causes of a 2 year life expectancy difference:

1. Americans have a much worse Diet.
2. Americans work longer hours.
3. Americans engage in more dangerous activities.
4. Murder rate is higher in the U.S..
5. America is made up of subgroups not present in Canada that have a much shorter life expectancy.
6. Americans are less active.


Only a dyed in the wool AMA doctor who thinks a 30% caesarian rate and mandatory Guardasil inoculations could look at a simple, generic, multi-faceted statistic like life expectancy and conclude "see - nyah nyah - that's a better system - they live longer."

This is why I hate doctors.

While they are generally more intelligent than most people you'll meet, they are fatally flawed in that they are locked inside their own heads about what health care should be, their patients are less-than-ideal cattle who almost always - according to the docs - don't know what's best for them, and they are unrelentingly condescending and insultingly paternalistic.

It's completely infantile - almost fetus-like, to reference a word "do no harm" docs adore - to base such a sweeping conclusion on a statistic with so many inputs.

Why don't you just say it like you mean it Doc - "I want a social medical system in the U.S. and any statistic that seems to support that desire I will tout."


I remember when I was a kid hearing from a friend who used to vacation in Maine - he said you could always tell who the Canadians were at the beach because they had garrish scars from their surgeries - apparently there's not enough time or skill in Canada to pay attention to such details.

I've heard plenty of horror stories about waiting times and quality issues in Canada.

Number of times in my life, or in the lives of any of my relatives in the U.S., in which access to immediate and excellent medical care was not available -
ZERO.

You think about that Doc.

Sure, homeless guy on the street in Canada may have a much better level of care than in the U.S..

But I can tell you for sure that the person equivalent to me in Canada does not.

You favor a more Marxist system, where people like me give up some of what we have so that the "poor" can be lifted up.


All you have to know about Canada's health care to truly understand it is the following:

It took a Supreme Court case to make private health insurance legal - prior to that case, they would put you in jail if you wanted to have your own private health insurance.
Schmuto
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed 17 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby SpringCreekFarm » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 11:23:35

Ha Ha. I live in Ontario and I have never had a problem with getting great medical care here. Although, no one really enjoys paying taxes, I don't feel overtaxed. You get what you pay for. If you don't like the taxes in Canada, move somewhere else.
SpringCreekFarm
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 936
Joined: Fri 03 Mar 2006, 04:00:00
Location: Canada
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Bytesmiths » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 12:41:55

There seems to be a lot of resentment and ill-will here. Too bad.

I don't feel guilty about my living simply, and I'm thankful for living in a country that supports such life-styles. We operate as a carbon sink, and supply our friends and neighbours with fresh organic food. I'm happy to gain some meagre support from someone who commutes a half-hour in Toronto or Vancouver -- albeit, from the comments posted here, unwilling.

There also seems to be some jealousy expressed here, and judgement that what I am doing is wrong, based upon comments about Revenue Canada and losing farm status. Too bad.

We run a tight ship. My partner is a professional bookkeeper. We have a cordial and ongoing relationship with CRA (formerly known as Revenue Canada -- those who criticize aren't even up on who they wish I was in trouble with!)

We are doing nothing legally wrong, although it seems to be the opinion here that we're somehow doing something morally wrong.

I guess I should expect such attitude in a thread called "The Vanishing Middle Ground." But you sound like a bunch of whiners -- your middle-class lifestyle is disappearing before your eyes, and all you can do is complain about someone who has escaped the middle class.

Would I be able to live this way without subsidy? Probably not today, but I am thankful for the opportunity to be supported in becoming established in a healthy, happy subsistence life-style. But neither could most businesses stand without subsidy, and I don't see people ragging on them.

As long as there are rich people who spew more than their share of carbon and pollution, and who use more than their share of non-replaceable fossil fuel, I do not feel one bit guilty for accepting their support for my life-style to the contrary of theirs.
:::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
User avatar
Bytesmiths
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 730
Joined: Wed 27 Oct 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Schmuto » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 13:29:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', 'T')here also seems to be some jealousy expressed here, and judgement that what I am doing is wrong, based upon comments about Revenue Canada and losing farm status. Too bad.


You've completely missed the point.

The point is that you gleefully tout how you're gaining maximum benefit from the system without inputting very much.

Said differently, you put in much less than you extract.

Well done. You're beating the system.

But the point is, the only reason the system exists is because other people aren't freeloading like you.

If everybody did what you did, then there would be virtually NO medical care in Canada.

So, their point is, if you're going to be on the "inputting very little/using much more than my share" part of the spectrum, at least don't be so damn glib about it.

You're like the guy on disability holding a sign as taxpayers drive to work every morning saying, "I get paid for nothing."

You see?

By the way, I'm with you, but, unlike you, my soon-to-be return to simplicity and low income living is me opting out - unlike you who maintains all benefits without putting in.

You're a poster child for why Marxism is so f------- wrong.
Schmuto
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 659
Joined: Wed 17 Dec 2008, 04:00:00
Top

Re: The Vanishing Middle Ground

Unread postby Novus » Mon 20 Apr 2009, 14:14:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'T')he people gaming the system at the top (not those gaming it at the bottom), and the system itself, are the real problem.


The reason Taxes are high in virtually every country is because of the people gaming the system at the TOP. They own the system so of course they are winning at it. They also own the media which tries to brainwash the sheeple into thinking it is those at the bottom that are the problem. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Health Insurance is a lot like a casino. A few a the bottom sometimes get lucky by paying in $20 and getting $20,000 out. But that is nothing compared to those that own the casino are making. If you don't think the casino has the machines rigged in their favor to make money no matter what then I have a certain bridge I want to sell you. Some of us who have brains can see the system for what it is while the rest are hopelessly brainwashed.
User avatar
Novus
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2450
Joined: Tue 21 Jun 2005, 03:00:00
Top
PreviousNext
Post a reply

Return to Open Topic Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests