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Middle ground between believers & deniers

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Narz » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 19:49:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')That's because people are hungry enough yet.


Being hungry doesn't magically give you the knowledge and skills to grow food.

Who said anything about magic? You're putting words in my mouth.

It doesn't take magic to buy a book (or do research at a library or online). It doesn't take magic to buy seeds.

Unless you're one who believes we're going from 60 to 0 overnight and public libraries, the Internet & seed companies will be a thing of the past.

Pay attention to how you're talking. You're letting yourself fall into doomer speak & doomer think (or non-think). One of the first signs is that whenever offer a solution you say "what magic will make that happen". The magic of human motivation, that's what. There is no guarentee it will solve all our problems but it will certainly solve some. It might give some (not you but some) an ego rush to think that the "dumb sheeples" will just sit at home & starve and wait for Uncy Sam to bail them out while the prepared doomer lives it up (in his basement hideout) but I don't think thats how it's going to go down.
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 19:49:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattS', 'I')f food is wildly valuable, people will grow their own


Just magically, with no land to grow it on.

Neat!
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 19:52:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')It doesn't take magic to buy a book (or do research at a library or online). It doesn't take magic to buy seeds.


Grown much food lately? I have tried.

Here's my garden in the current drought:

Image

Where's the food?


Do you see why I'm a little doomy lately?
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 19:56:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattS', '
')Cost was about $100G's for the complete system, if I recall correctly.


Oh yeah, that's real affordable for the small farmer.
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 19:58:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattS', 'P')erhaps gunsmith?

:lol:
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Narz » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 20:01:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')It doesn't take magic to buy a book (or do research at a library or online). It doesn't take magic to buy seeds.


Grown much food lately? I have tried.

Here's my garden in the current drought:

Image

Where's the food?


Do you see why I'm a little doomy lately?

Why don't you irrigate?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattS', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattS', '
')Because of the very efficiency of modern farming, I suspect it will be able to afford the cost of fossil fuels well beyond the average motorist, which is reasonable.


Little good it will do if nobody can afford to buy the food.


True. But as with all things, increased prices bring about change. If food is wildly valuable, people will grow their own. And the price of it sold on the open market will drop.Suburbia will never feed itself. There is not enough land.
There is enough land. There is some family in Pasadena that grows 70% of their food on a quarter or half acre of land. Of course they've got pretty much a year round growing season. I imagine many suburban areas in hostile climates (Arizona, Montana, etc.) will simply be abandoned over time.
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 20:02:49

In spite of irrigation, the garden could not survive the hot, dry winds.

And this was with plentiful cheap energy.
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Narz » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 20:05:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'W')ow. A pep talk. I feel much better now.

Why do you need to feel better? You're safe behind the Redwood Curtain. :wink:
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 20:05:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')There is enough land. There is some family in Pasadena that grows 70% of their food on a quarter or half acre of land.



We've never heard of them! :)

http://pathtofreedom.com/


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'O')f course they've got pretty much a year round growing season. I imagine many suburban areas in hostile climates (Arizona, Montana, etc.) will simply be abandoned over time.


And the people move to...somewhere else I guess. :)
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Narz » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 20:07:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I')n spite of irrigation, the garden could not survive the hot, dry winds.

And this was with plentiful cheap energy.

You should move then while you can. I imagine Texas ain't get any cooler any time soon (unless you believe the conspiracy folks who think we should worry about a new ice age coming 8O ).
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Narz » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 20:09:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'h')ttp://pathtofreedom.com/

Yeah, that's it. :)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', 'O')f course they've got pretty much a year round growing season. I imagine many suburban areas in hostile climates (Arizona, Montana, etc.) will simply be abandoned over time.


And the people move to...somewhere else I guess. :)
[/quote]
Yeah, either that or they die off early. Don't get me wrong, I think lots of people are going to die off, I just think it'll be more like Russia with higher suicide & alcoholism rates & fewer children as opposed to some zombie horde wonderland.
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Narz » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 20:10:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattS', 'A')nd cheap energy? That disappeared YEARS ago! Where have you been?

You kiddin'? Energy is still damn cheap!
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Homesteader » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 20:11:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')There is enough land. There is some family in Pasadena that grows 70% of their food on a quarter or half acre of land. Of course they've got pretty much a year round growing season.


There you go, proof positive that suburbia can feed itself. By the way Narz, why don't you post some pictures of your garden? The rest of us would love to see the results of your efforts.
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 20:11:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', '
')You should move then while you can.


So your solution is a massive upheaval of populations from harsh climates to climates conducive to growing one's own food?

Who is going to pay for that? How will the new populations be accommodated in the new locations?

I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just trying to show that glib answers such as "grow your own food when you get hungry!" and "move to where you can easily grow your own food" are just that - glib. They offer easy answers to very difficult problems.
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Re: Any middle grounders here?

Unread postby Ludi » Fri 25 Jul 2008, 20:33:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Narz', ' ')some zombie horde wonderland.


Just FYI, I don't believe in the zombie hordes, though I do consider myself a doomer. Though apparently according to this thread, if I don't believe in zombie hordes I'm a moderate or middle grounder.

Who knows? :)
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