[Revi]

I agree with you JD. We find that we have more spending money, not less with the changes we've made to our lifestyle. We spend it in our community on things like going out to the movies, eating in restaurants and buying stuff at local shops.

I think that conservation could be a boon to the local economy.

Money spent on oil goes out of the state, and usually out of the country.

I think we would experience an economic stimulus if we spent less money on oil and more on conservation.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', '
')I think we would experience an economic stimulus if we spent less money on oil and more on conservation.

[dohboi]

Is this a kumbaya moment here at PO forums--long time po-ers agreeing with JD, of all people? the lions sitting down with the lambs?

But really I was about to pitch in on JD's behalf also. There is obviously a huge amount of really stupid waste in the way we do just about everything. This provides a huge opportunity for what Amory Lovins calls nega-watts in the electricity realm.

But as MQ and others remind us if you save money by biking, you are going to spend it on something else that will require burning of oil. On average every dollar spent involves the burning of about a quart of oil somewhere along the line.

And I'm not sure that ending all of that discretionary travel will require no gov action. We still have people at and near the top that are committed to limitless growth.

I actually think that the best selling point for the major kinds of shifts we will need are economic and military security--the more we can supply all of our energy needs domestically, the more secure we will be on both fronts. (I know, "energy independence" is something of a chimera, but a politically useful one, and I think an important idea in principle.)

More Republicans and other conservatives are likely to sign on if it is put in these terms than if it is put purely in terms of GW or PO.

Some of the hard but very necessary sells will be cutting way back by those who use most--the very wealthy and the military.

The very wealthy are not too popular these days as most see them as benefiting from ill-gotten gains, so maybe this will not be so hard. Obamas caps on CEO salaries has been well received in most quarters, as far as I've heard.

If we can pose the military reduction as refocusing on the core task of defending the country rather than projecting US power around the world, maybe it could fly, but I doubt it.

But the combination of cutting out discretionary air and car travel, reducing consumption levels especially at the top, cutting back military, going mostly vegetarian/vegan and local and organic, super insulating buildings, and some alternative energy sources--most of these would leave us healthier and happier while cutting way back on our ff use and our ghg emissions, while making the country much more secure in many ways.

I think we would need a new kind of economic system for this to work, something probably more like the kind of command economy we saw during WWII. We are already moving that direction with nationalization of major banks. And that happened under a Republican pres. With the dems in control, we could move pretty quickly in that direction, perhaps. But generally powerful interests are so entrenched in both parties that it is hard to hope for much sanity coming out of D.C. any time soon.

[zeke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', '
')I think we would need a new kind of economic system for this to work.

[outcast]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'a') cooperative, restorative way of life is the only one that makes any sense, even if you look at nature as a mechanistic system.

[zeke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('outcast', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'a') cooperative, restorative way of life is the only one that makes any sense, even if you look at nature as a mechanistic system.

[Revi]

I think it can be done easily, but we lack the will to do it so far.

The average American can cut their fossil fuel by half and not even experience any signifigant drop in their standard of living. We did it in our household and we live a lot better now. We have about $3000 extra dollars to spend every year too. That money is spent on movies, going out to eat, farmer's market and other things that benefit the local economy.

http://www.msad54.org/sahs/appliedarts/ ... /index.htm

Click on the pics for more explanation.

[zeke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', '
')The average American can cut their fossil fuel by half and not even experience any signifigant drop in their standard of living.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', 'C')onservation saves money and that money can be spent elsewhere. For example, the average commute in the US is 16 miles long. Now suppose Joe with a 16 mile commute stops driving and rides a bike instead. It's slightly more inconvenient, but hardly impossible or the end of the world.
Joe used to drive an SUV with 12mpg fuel efficiency, so at $3 gas he was spending $80 a month. Thus he now has $80 more money, per month, than he used to have. And that money can and will be spent on other things.

[AirlinePilot]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', ' ')The reality is that the entire vehicle industry is totally focused now on efficiency. Every major manufacturer will be rolling out ultra-efficient and electric vehicles by 2010. And this process itself is driving explosive growth in a number of new industries such as batteries etc.

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zeke', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', '
')The average American can cut their fossil fuel by half and not even experience any signifigant drop in their standard of living.

[Plantagenet]

Average Americans will cut their energy use when energy gets very expensive.

Europeans drive much smaller cars then Americans....is this because they are virtuous and wise? Obviously no....its because gas costs 6-8 bucks more per gallon in Europe then in the US.

If Congress would tax energy in the US and raise gas prices to levels like those in Europe, Americans would suddenly drive small cars like those in Europe and insulate their homes and otherwise change their lifestyles to save energy.

[Plantagenet]

Average Americans will cut their energy use when energy gets very expensive.

Europeans drive much smaller cars then Americans....is this because they are all virtuous eco-gurus? Obviously no....its because gas costs 6-8 bucks more per gallon in Europe then in the US.

If Congress would tax energy in the US and raise gas prices to levels like those in Europe, Americans would suddenly drive small cars like those in Europe and insulate their homes and otherwise become eco-gurus rushing to change their lifestyles to save energy.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AirlinePilot', 'E')xcellent rebuttal and i agree completely with every bullet you posted.

I believe the reality is that no real change takes place until we feel real pain. Most of us here who truly understand PO know what that means.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', 'I')f Congress would tax energy in the US and raise gas prices to levels like those in Europe, Americans would suddenly drive small cars

[AirlinePilot]

Hey JD,

Here's an article for ya! I cant wait until our first rate auto industry starts building all those highly efficient /Electric powered vehicles.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home


"Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC may have to be forced into
bankruptcy by the U.S. government to assure repayment of $17.4 billion in federal bailout
loans, a course of action the automakers claim would destroy them. "

[rangerone314]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', ' ') Monte, I'm not making any statement. I'm asking you a question, and you didn't really answer it.

[zeke]

whether we've peaked or not, isn't it resoundingly clear that continuing a way of life powered by oil is about the stupidest thing we could possibly do?

Just this side of the crazy line of drinking Dran-o straight from the jug chased by lye?


zeke

[mos6507]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('zeke', 'w')hether we've peaked or not, isn't it resoundingly clear that continuing a way of life powered by oil is about the stupidest thing we could possibly do?

Just this side of the crazy line of drinking Dran-o straight from the jug chased by lye?

[zeke]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', 'I')t was stupid to allow ourselves to be dependent on it for our very survival. Now that we are, though, it would be equally stupid to think we can just go cold turkey overnight, given that it's the main thing propping up our numbers so far above what the planet would normally support.