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THE United Nations (UN) Thread (merged)

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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby Munqi » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 20:10:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Do you happen to know why kim jong ill is still in power? Propaganda, lies, taking with one hand and giving back with the other. Just like every other murdereous regime out there.

You're not seriously saying you support hamas?


So because I state facts about how Hamas came to power, now I'm supporting Hamas? Amazing how you can make that leap.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')fcourse they are stealing that stuff for themselves.


Do you have proof that they stole it for themselves? Will you acknowledge the reason why they won the elections was because of their social programs such as feeding the poor and funding schools and hospitals?


Well actually i said those two things separately. (although it may not look like it) I answered your question then asked mine.

And i dont have proof (naturally) but i dont need it because its the only reasonable explanation. Your version is simply laughable. And yes, that is partly the reason. However, if you're one of the biggest causes of someones misery, then does that make you a good person if you help him afterwards? Without hamas this conflict would probably be solved by now.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 20:26:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')i dont need it because its the only reasonable explanation.


You do acknowledge that Hamas has multiple wings of their organization and their social welfare wing was a major reason for their electoral success, right?. So how is it not a reasonable possibility that Hamas took the UN aid for social welfare like how they've done in the past for so long?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever, if you're one of the biggest causes of someones misery, then does that make you a good person if you help him afterwards?


Never said that. But it's certainly possible that you can cause someone ill while still helping them afterwards.

I find it amazing that you'll ignore what Hamas has done in the past, even the recent past, with regards to social welfare and automatically conclude that they are using the stolen goods solely to feed and clothe their military when there's a perfectly reasonable explanation that is the (near) opposite of that.

Of course, even such a move would be political. I'm certainly not ignoring that. They have much to gain from appearing to be the good guys. That's why it's so likely that they are using this aid for the people, rather than themselves. If they enrich themselves, they'll be thrown out of power. If they give it to the people, they have more people clamoring for them in the next elections and rallies, rather than for the UN.

But you'd rather ignore basic facts about Hamas in order to jump to conclusions!
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 20:34:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o you happen to know why kim jong ill is still in power? Propaganda, lies, taking with one hand and giving back with the other. Just like every other murdereous regime out there.


Actually that's a fairly apt description of many regimes any where. Do you think that the Dems got so much power now, or the GOP in the past, because they didn't use propaganda and didn't lie? There's no reason to associate Hamas with Kim Jong Il. What you're doing is no different than comparing someone to Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby Munqi » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 21:11:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')i dont need it because its the only reasonable explanation.


You do acknowledge that Hamas has multiple wings of their organization and their social welfare wing was a major reason for their electoral success, right?. So how is it not a reasonable possibility that Hamas took the UN aid for social welfare like how they've done in the past for so long?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever, if you're one of the biggest causes of someones misery, then does that make you a good person if you help him afterwards?


Never said that. But it's certainly possible that you can cause someone ill while still helping them afterwards.

I find it amazing that you'll ignore what Hamas has done in the past, even the recent past, with regards to social welfare and automatically conclude that they are using the stolen goods solely to feed and clothe their military when there's a perfectly reasonable explanation that is the (near) opposite of that.

Of course, even such a move would be political. I'm certainly not ignoring that. They have much to gain from appearing to be the good guys. That's why it's so likely that they are using this aid for the people, rather than themselves. If they enrich themselves, they'll be thrown out of power. If they give it to the people, they have more people clamoring for them in the next elections and rallies, rather than for the UN.

But you'd rather ignore basic facts about Hamas in order to jump to conclusions!


Are you saying its a reasonable idea that they would risk destroying ties with the UN so that they could distribute aid that would be distributed anyway!??! Give me a fucking break.

And that little PR campaign theory of yours makes perfect sense until this happens - at which point its not such a great idea. I doubt that hamas would have made such a gamble for so little benefit.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby Munqi » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 21:13:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o you happen to know why kim jong ill is still in power? Propaganda, lies, taking with one hand and giving back with the other. Just like every other murdereous regime out there.


Actually that's a fairly apt description of many regimes any where. Do you think that the Dems got so much power now, or the GOP in the past, because they didn't use propaganda and didn't lie? There's no reason to associate Hamas with Kim Jong Il. What you're doing is no different than comparing someone to Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot.


Why not? Kim jong ill and hamas both kill their own people but at the same time try to make it seem like they are the ones defending their people from the evil outsiders. And no it is no different than comparing someone to hitler or stalin and infact, i might just do that. Hamas is acting exactly like Stalin.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 21:26:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'K')im jong ill and hamas both kill their own people but at the same time try to make it seem like they are the ones defending their people from the evil outsiders.


Hamas does not kill their own civilians in brutal campaigns like Kim Jong Il or Stalin. They've done idiotic things that have resulted in deaths. But so has Israel. Would you compare Israel, then, to Stalin, Hitler or Kim Jong Il?
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 21:26:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re you saying its a reasonable idea that they would risk destroying ties with the UN so that they could distribute aid that would be distributed anyway!??! Give me a farking break.


Why not? Distribute the aid and get credit for it? What's unreasonable about that?

If you can't see the reason why politicians wouldn't want to take credit for passing out aid, then you're severely blind to the realities of politics throughout the world. The one thing that politicians want to do is to gain and keep power. If they have to manipulate situations in order to do that, they'll do it. Hamas taking aid and passing it out falls directly in that category.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby Munqi » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 21:57:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re you saying its a reasonable idea that they would risk destroying ties with the UN so that they could distribute aid that would be distributed anyway!??! Give me a farking break.


Why not? Distribute the aid and get credit for it? What's unreasonable about that?

If you can't see the reason why politicians wouldn't want to take credit for passing out aid, then you're severely blind to the realities of politics throughout the world. The one thing that politicians want to do is to gain and keep power. If they have to manipulate situations in order to do that, they'll do it. Hamas taking aid and passing it out falls directly in that category.


Because if the UN does THIS then the gazan people see what kind of leadership thy have. It doesnt make sense so it never happened. They used it to supply their troops and now they're going to pay the price for using my taxes to feed their jihadists.

As for the stalin comparison: It tells alot about how objective you are about this organization when you call launching rockets from populated areas so that civilians would die and be used for propaganda "idiotic".
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 22:09:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ecause if the UN does THIS then the gazan people see what kind of leadership thy have. It doesnt make sense so it never happened. They used it to supply their troops and now they're going to pay the price for using my taxes to feed their jihadists.


You're not making any sense.

We have two scenarios:

1) Hamas takes the aid. They give it to the people. They get votes because of this. They lose international aid status, which will draw some ire.

2) Hamas takes the aid. They keep it for themselves. They don't get votes. They still lose international aid status, which will draw the same amount of ire.

It's quite clear that it's more reasonable to steal and give it to the people to appear to be the good guys. Why let the 'glory' go to other people?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t tells alot about how objective you are about this organization when you call launching rockets from populated areas so that civilians would die and be used for propaganda "idiotic".


How would saying that say anything about how objective I am? Do you not think that it's idiotic that Hamas fires from populated areas? Do you think that it's intelligent to fire from populated areas?

And I don't believe I have said that, although I do think that.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby threadbear » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 22:25:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Munqi', 'I') hate to say it but we cant keep bending over to terrorist organizations like hamas. Perhaps the gazan people will now realise that hamas should not be representing them.

If we give aid (and we should) it should not be going to hamas. If they steal it, then they must answer to gazans.


Do you happen to know why Hamas was able to become democratically elected?


Do you happen to know why kim jong ill is still in power? Propaganda, lies, taking with one hand and giving back with the other. Just like every other murdereous regime out there.

You're not seriously saying you support hamas?


Since when was Dear Leader democratically elected? It makes perfect sense that Palestinians would elect Hamas. It's their only hope. Good on them.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 23:42:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '
')So how is it not a reasonable possibility that Hamas took the UN aid for social welfare like how they've done in the past for so long?


You do realize that Hamas thrives on creating sort of plausible deniability.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '
')That's why it's so likely that they are using this aid for the people, rather than themselves.


If the region is starving, isn't it a typical response for TPTB to hoard resources for themselves? Look at North Korea or parts of Africa for precedent.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 23:44:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '
')Hamas does not kill their own civilians in brutal campaigns like Kim Jong Il or Stalin.


You don't consider the people who died during the civil war that created Hamastan killing their own people?
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby mos6507 » Fri 06 Feb 2009, 23:45:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '
')2) Hamas takes the aid. They keep it for themselves. They don't get votes. They still lose international aid status, which will draw the same amount of ire.


You really think Hamastan has a functional democracy anymore???
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Sat 07 Feb 2009, 06:07:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f the region is starving, isn't it a typical response for TPTB to hoard resources for themselves?


It hasn't degenerated that badly yet as compared to two years ago when Hamas swept through the elections. Again, proof?

70% depedent in '06

In '09, it's around 80%. So there hasn't been that much of a change in the food situation. It's gotten worse, but it's not reached the level like in other parts of the world. If Hamas was passing food out when 70% of the people were dependent, why would they suddenly be hoarding at 80%? Have you calculated the "hoarding threshold" to be between 70 and 80%?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou don't consider the people who died during the civil war that created Hamastan killing their own people?


Sure, but that was a civil war. It's quite clear I was talking about genocide of their own people. Otherwise, you could compare Lincoln to Stalin, which everyone would see is ridiculous. Not even Israel is committing genocide, so how could Hamas?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou really think Hamastan has a functional democracy anymore???


Is there any reason to doubt it? Have they missed any elections as of yet? They have been negotiating with Fatah for the next round of elections. They aren't sure of the date of the elections though.

What irks me about Munqi, PA and maybe others is that they won't even express doubt in their posts. They think that they can sit behind a keyboard and know exactly what's going on. I've expressed doubt, put my scenarios along with probabilities. Would you at least acknowledge that you could be wrong about Hamas stealing it for themselves?
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby Munqi » Sat 07 Feb 2009, 09:02:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', 'W')hat irks me about Munqi, PA and maybe others is that they won't even express doubt in their posts. They think that they can sit behind a keyboard and know exactly what's going on. I've expressed doubt, put my scenarios along with probabilities. Would you at least acknowledge that you could be wrong about Hamas stealing it for themselves?


No. Not until you give me a plausible reason why they would steal food to distribute it even though it would be distributed anyway. The reasons you have given are not good enough.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Sat 07 Feb 2009, 09:09:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')No. Not until you give me a plausible reason why they would steal food to distribute it even though it would be distributed anyway. The reasons you have given are not good enough.


Then you have no idea how politics work. I suggest you pick up a political science book and you'll see how politicians work and why they do it (hint: for more power).
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby Munqi » Sat 07 Feb 2009, 09:52:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')No. Not until you give me a plausible reason why they would steal food to distribute it even though it would be distributed anyway. The reasons you have given are not good enough.


Then you have no idea how politics work. I suggest you pick up a political science book and you'll see how politicians work and why they do it (hint: for more power).



Still waiting.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 07 Feb 2009, 10:14:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '
')Is there any reason to doubt it? Have they missed any elections as of yet? They have been negotiating with Fatah for the next round of elections. They aren't sure of the date of the elections though.


Come on. The government between the West Bank and Gaza does not function as one coherent entity. Nobody sees the two halves as one functional unit anymore.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '
')Would you at least acknowledge that you could be wrong about Hamas stealing it for themselves?


Could be. But knowing the scruples of Hamas, I have no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt. Even if you are right, if the UN won't ship aid unless it controls the way the aid is distributed, then Hamas should play ball. Hamas has a very bad track record of following any rules but its own.
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby 3aidlillahi » Sat 07 Feb 2009, 10:19:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Come on. The government between the West Bank and Gaza does not function as one coherent entity. Nobody sees the two halves as one functional unit anymore.


They have been negotiating to resolve the political crisis though.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ould be. But knowing the scruples of Hamas, I have no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.


True. On on hand, they've very often given out aid and been generous. But they've certainly made many a faux-pas while in political power.

Still, it's better than people like Munqi who's never heard of the phrase: Success has a thousand fathers while failure is an orphan.

Edit:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ven if you are right, if the UN won't ship aid unless it controls the way the aid is distributed, then Hamas should play ball


Of course. In reality, it's extremely harmful to get off of aid. It could be quite disasterous for Gaza. Politically, not so much. On the other hand, it could be two thumbs up from a PO view point. Can't have a 3% population growth rate if there's no food. :twisted:
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Re: UN STARVES GAZANS!!!

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 07 Feb 2009, 11:35:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '
')They have been negotiating to resolve the political crisis though.


Talk is cheap, especially in the middle east.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '
')they've certainly made many a faux-pas while in political power.


That's an understatement. :lol:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('3aidlillahi', '
')Of course. In reality, it's extremely harmful to get off of aid. It could be quite disasterous for Gaza. Politically, not so much. On the other hand, it could be two thumbs up from a PO view point. Can't have a 3% population growth rate if there's no food. :twisted:


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