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Re: Tackeling the Cornocopians

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby Dezakin » Mon 11 Aug 2008, 16:19:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nicholai', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'W')hat about 500% increase of food prices?
What about 500% increases of energy prices?

Not much will be left in your pocket after paying for that...

Only if per capita income growth came to a halt.


Some people just can't see past Econ 101.

American Standard of Living on the Decline

A pretty poor place to start from if prices accelerate with any rate of speed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lthough the US ranks second in the world in per capita annual income (behind only Luxembourg), one in five children are living in poverty, the report found.

When the measure of poverty is not being able to afford the new game console, I dont worry excessively.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby VMarcHart » Mon 11 Aug 2008, 16:27:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'W')hen the measure of poverty is not being able to afford the new game console, I dont worry excessively.
D, please allow to gives 2 cents in ya'lls discussion. I travel a lot. I see American children sleeping in cars, under bridges, taking turns on meals, etc. Sure, being a poor kid is San Francisco is better than in Rio de Janeiro, but neither is affording the new console. My 2 cents. Pardon the intrusion.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby Dezakin » Tue 12 Aug 2008, 16:48:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'W')hen the measure of poverty is not being able to afford the new game console, I dont worry excessively.
D, please allow to gives 2 cents in ya'lls discussion. I travel a lot. I see American children sleeping in cars, under bridges, taking turns on meals, etc. Sure, being a poor kid is San Francisco is better than in Rio de Janeiro, but neither is affording the new console. My 2 cents. Pardon the intrusion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in ... ted_States

There are homeless people sure, but it sure as hell isnt the 1 in 5 number. poverty as defined is just not being able to afford all the shiny toys that your classmates have.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby VMarcHart » Tue 12 Aug 2008, 18:27:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'W')hen the measure of poverty is not being able to afford the new game console, I dont worry excessively.
D, please allow to gives 2 cents in ya'lls discussion. I travel a lot. I see American children sleeping in cars, under bridges, taking turns on meals, etc. Sure, being a poor kid is San Francisco is better than in Rio de Janeiro, but neither is affording the new console. My 2 cents. Pardon the intrusion.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in ... ted_States

There are homeless people sure, but it sure as hell isnt the 1 in 5 number. poverty as defined is just not being able to afford all the shiny toys that your classmates have.
I need to take you on some of my trips.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby Nicholai » Tue 12 Aug 2008, 20:53:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nicholai', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'W')hat about 500% increase of food prices?
What about 500% increases of energy prices?

Not much will be left in your pocket after paying for that...

Only if per capita income growth came to a halt.


Some people just can't see past Econ 101.

American Standard of Living on the Decline

A pretty poor place to start from if prices accelerate with any rate of speed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lthough the US ranks second in the world in per capita annual income (behind only Luxembourg), one in five children are living in poverty, the report found.

When the measure of poverty is not being able to afford the new game console, I dont worry excessively.

Some people would deny that the sky was blue.

Don't ever quote wikipedia if you want to approach me with any kind of legitimacy.

A first class ticket to the hall of fools.

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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby threadbear » Tue 12 Aug 2008, 20:57:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '
') I dont worry excessively.


Nor do you appear to think excessively.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby mos6507 » Tue 12 Aug 2008, 21:04:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('VMarcHart', '
')I need to take you on some of my trips.


You need to find a better travel agent ;)
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby VMarcHart » Wed 13 Aug 2008, 10:59:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nicholai', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'W')hen the measure of poverty is not being able to afford the new game console, I dont worry excessively.
Some people would deny that the sky was blue. Don't ever quote wikipedia if you want to approach me with any kind of legitimacy. A first class ticket to the hall of fools.
Interesting graph, Nick. Thanks! I think was Dezakin was saying is that here in the US, when we think poverty, it's still luxurious compared to other countries. Yes and no. A friend tells her kids "we're poor" yet they attend private schools. Poor for them is "sorry, we can't have the newest iPod". That's not poor. That's merely under the median income, like the Unicef graph suggests, and that's part of the 39 million Americans under the poverty line. However, when I travel, ie, in Minnesota, I see white blue-eyed 3rd-grader US citizens taking turns on who's going to have supper. That's poor.

Like I said, I'd rather be dirt poor in San Francisco, than in New Delhi.

My 2 cents.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby Quinny » Wed 13 Aug 2008, 17:02:25

So - is poverty relative?
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby JJ » Wed 13 Aug 2008, 17:09:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')o - is poverty relative?


I think so...I have an acquaintance who is a wall street millionaire who is broke when he can't get to an ATM machine. When Bing and I got married, there was a thalidomide guy with no arms or legs who sold mangoes downtown; to get around he pushed himself with his chin on a skateboard. He looked pretty broke to me... (not trying to be funny)
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby Quinny » Wed 13 Aug 2008, 17:28:05

I agree but surely lack of basic food and shelter is the indication of real poverty. One of the problems of relative poverty is that there is no line that can be easily drawn.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JJ', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')o - is poverty relative?


I think so...I have an acquaintance who is a wall street millionaire who is broke when he can't get to an ATM machine. When Bing and I got married, there was a thalidomide guy with no arms or legs who sold mangoes downtown; to get around he pushed himself with his chin on a skateboard. He looked pretty broke to me... (not trying to be funny)
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby Dezakin » Wed 13 Aug 2008, 18:01:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')o - is poverty relative?

The problem here is when you talk about poverty in the united states by these economic journals its usually defined as relative poverty, yes. I've had close friends who grew up in relative poverty, and it meant getting bland food, food stamps, no shiny game consoles, shopping at thrift stores and living in dingy appartments. By the standards of a Chinese peasant, wild luxury.

Now I know theres anecdotes of American children who go hungry, but these are exceptionally rare cases. What you would call extreme poverty simply doesn't exist in the united states. Where it does, its almost allways due to criminal neglect or mental illness.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby Nicholai » Wed 13 Aug 2008, 18:55:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')o - is poverty relative?

The problem here is when you talk about poverty in the united states by these economic journals its usually defined as relative poverty, yes. I've had close friends who grew up in relative poverty, and it meant getting bland food, food stamps, no shiny game consoles, shopping at thrift stores and living in dingy appartments. By the standards of a Chinese peasant, wild luxury.

Now I know theres anecdotes of American children who go hungry, but these are exceptionally rare cases. What you would call extreme poverty simply doesn't exist in the united states. Where it does, its almost allways due to criminal neglect or mental illness.


I think I've discovered my first troll.

No sources. No facts. Just off-the-cuff feelings or personal opinions...or wiki links.....

Try this for size:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he United States Department of Agriculture (U.S.D.A.) reports that in 2000, twelve percent of all American households were "food insecure." (2) In other words, 1 in 10 households could not lead active, healthy lives because they did not have enough to eat. Of these families, 4.2 million households (8.5 million people) had to skip or reduce their meals.




The Rich Get Richer, the Poor Get Poorer
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby Dezakin » Wed 13 Aug 2008, 19:56:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nicholai', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Quinny', 'S')o - is poverty relative?

The problem here is when you talk about poverty in the united states by these economic journals its usually defined as relative poverty, yes. I've had close friends who grew up in relative poverty, and it meant getting bland food, food stamps, no shiny game consoles, shopping at thrift stores and living in dingy appartments. By the standards of a Chinese peasant, wild luxury.

Now I know theres anecdotes of American children who go hungry, but these are exceptionally rare cases. What you would call extreme poverty simply doesn't exist in the united states. Where it does, its almost allways due to criminal neglect or mental illness.


I think I've discovered my first troll.

No sources. No facts. Just off-the-cuff feelings or personal opinions...or wiki links.....

So you're criticising wikipedia while quoting a policy advocacy organization? Okay...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')ry this for size:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he United States Department of Agriculture (U.S.D.A.) reports that in 2000, twelve percent of all American households were "food insecure." (2) In other words, 1 in 10 households could not lead active, healthy lives because they did not have enough to eat. Of these families, 4.2 million households (8.5 million people) had to skip or reduce their meals.




The Rich Get Richer, the Poor Get Poorer

From the very article:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ixteen percent of all children live in poverty in the U.S. In 2000, the federal government's official poverty level for a family of four was $17,463-an egregiously inadequate amount a family needs to survive. There's no rocket science to why the number of people living in poverty parallels the number of people going hungry. Without enough money to eat, people will go hungry.

This is relative poverty. 17,000 a year for a family of four is a monsterous sum for anyone in the developing world, and in the US its more than enough to buy a large amount of food, the alarmist tone in the article notwithstanding.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby outcast » Thu 14 Aug 2008, 00:00:08

That's because of the living standard differences. In most places in China you can get a decent meal for $1 or less, but in the US and Europe you can only get a bottle of water for it (or maybe a 20 minute phone call :P).

Now, that being said many parts of america are not paradise and widespread poverty is a real issue in many of these areas. Here's from a guy who lived in LA from 1987-1997.

http://www.rjgeib.com/biography/la-days/la-days.html

Now if he didn't mention it directly, you would think he was describing a city in the third world: A few business districts, some pockets of wealth, and a vast economic wasteland full of poverty, and a absurdly high crime rate.

There's virtually no middle class in the city, since they moved out to the suburbs, leaving the rest of the city to rot. Not a pretty picture.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby VMarcHart » Thu 14 Aug 2008, 09:41:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dezakin', 'N')ow I know theres anecdotes of American children who go hungry, but these are exceptionally rare cases. What you would call extreme poverty simply doesn't exist in the united states. Where it does, its almost allways due to criminal neglect or mental illness.
Dezakin, please drop me a line next time you're visiting Chicago. I'll take you on a tour.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 14 Aug 2008, 12:25:17

:) I've always been amused by the way MSM covers "Hunger in America'. They usually interview and film some worker in a food shelter that is an axe handle and ahalf across her butt and has a hard time walking between the shelves without scraping off the food cans. If you want to show me hunger in America interview sombody that has missed a meal or three.
If you could be anywhere on earth but had to start out dirt poor when you got there then the USA is the only choice. Just ask those Mexicans that are paying the coyotees to get them here.
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby Dezakin » Thu 14 Aug 2008, 14:03:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('outcast', 'T')hat's because of the living standard differences. In most places in China you can get a decent meal for $1 or less, but in the US and Europe you can only get a bottle of water for it (or maybe a 20 minute phone call :P).

When working minimum wage for a day will buy you a bag of rice that will feed you for a month, if you are actually going hungry you're doing something wrong.

Oh sure, its expensive to pay someone to prepare food for you every day...
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 14 Aug 2008, 15:13:47

Many people don't know how to cook with inexpensive basic ingredients - their mothers never taught them, and they didn't have Home Ec in school. :( So if they can't buy the premade food they're used to eating, they go hungry. Ignorance is often an aspect of poverty - it isn't their fault, it's just the way they were raised. Of course the same is often true of people in higher income brackets - they don't know how to cook, they only know how to buy frozen pizza and Stouffers. 8O
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Re: Tackling the Cornucopians

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 14 Aug 2008, 15:27:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'M')any people don't know how to cook with inexpensive basic ingredients - their mothers never taught them, and they didn't have Home Ec in school. :( So if they can't buy the premade food they're used to eating, they go hungry. Ignorance is often an aspect of poverty - it isn't their fault, it's just the way they were raised. Of course the same is often true of people in higher income brackets - they don't know how to cook, they only know how to buy frozen pizza and Stouffers. 8O

Somehow I don't feel any sympathy at all to these peoples.

They get what they deserve.
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