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Crude oil prices: Energy Bubble?

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 01:47:21

Don't get me wrong, I'm gobbling up this buying opportunity like there's no tomorrow. But it does beg the question "Which hedge funds (Yes, plural) are having the fire sale to stave off bankruptcy?"
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby Novus » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 01:59:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Arsenal', 'H')a!! Problem solved. Time to go and buy a new SUV. :roll: :roll: :roll:

Arsenal


I am sure many will buy new SUVs. Cheap oil is a self correcting issue that will lead to more expensive oil in the next cycle.
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby Micki » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 02:34:07

Did they just rehash an article from 2006? :roll:
Sorry, I just have heard this news so many times the last few years. I am sure one of these times they'll get it right.
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby TreebeardsUncle » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 03:03:15

Well, when talking about global warming, oil price rises, and housing price drops words such as may, might, can, and could (subjunctive mood) is used. TPTB demand the following that global warming is not considered to be a problem, housing prices go up, and oil prices go down. Physical and economic realities will overwhelm official fantasies that most people buy into and present good buying opportunities. Note it is premature to buy into oil. Wait until it drops below 100 in the second week of October.

Lates.
g
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby Carlhole » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 05:22:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', '[')b]The great oil bubble has burst

If the trend continues into September at anything like the same rate of descent, most of the inflationary spike of the past 12 months will miraculously have been sliced away. This is a dramatic reversal, and it is worth trying to work out why it is happening and what it means.


Jerome a Paris has got the best reply to this:

Countdown to $200 oil (10) - oil at $120!!

[align=center]Image[/align]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne point that needs to be made again is that demand destruction in the US (or even in Europe, where it is hapoening too) is not enough on its own to bring prices down, because it needs to be larger than the supply growth in the rest of the world to limit the requirement for further demand destruction and price rises, given that production is still largely stagnant. And the problem is that demand is not growing just in China and India, thanks to rapid growth, it is also growing massively in oil producing countries themselves (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia, Venezuela), which often subsidize gas and which can afford it given that they have a natural hedge against (the subsidy gets bigger when oil prices are higher, ie when their own income is bigger, and the income growth is larger than the subsidy growth for those that export any volumes). In fact, most of the demand destruction happens in price sensitive places, like the poorest oil-importing countries (but they weren't burning much of it anyway), and the rich world (which can still afford oil, but consumes lots of it). But we can't be sure it happens fast enough to actually cause prices to go down because of what's going on in the rest of the world.

Anything that encourages demand reduction elsewhere (like lower subsidies) helps to bring prices down, but it's by no means obvious that we've reached price levels that are sufficient to cause overall demand stagnation in the face of flat or quasi-flat production. Oil producers have little or no incentive to boost their production if they expect prices to keep on creeping up (and they can help that trend by, precisely, investing less), and it's not clear what substitutes are available in any meaningful volumes.

So, at this point, I'm still happy to continue my "Countdown to $200 oil series" and see no reason why the recent lull in prices would be a sign of a serious trend change in the market.


Just from experience, looking at the chart above, it seems almost classical that we will see prices fall perhaps a bit more and then the upward trend will resume - but more slowly. In other words, the chart's future shape, by my guess, will look similar to the famous long-term oil production chart - which is sensible because no economics could withstand the exponential patterns exhibited.
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 08:32:13

I agree Carl. I don't follow daly or even weekly trends. Average MONTHYLY oil prices have risen for the last 7 months including July. Aug may be another matter. I'm an even bigger beleiver in the 6 month running average.
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby jlw61 » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 08:53:25

Use this bursting bubble, and the stupidity it will bring, to your advantage. It was a good fire drill, and I've identified some definite weaknesses in my situation. Use this gift of time to identify and fix the perceived problems in your situation.
When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 08:57:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', 'R')emember in 2007 when people were wondering if we would BREAK through $100 BBL and now oil is "falling" to $118

Please reality check :roll:


Exactly.
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby Nickel » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 09:02:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'N')otice that near the end of the article, the author also says this:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat's not to say it won't go up again when the signals change and all those long-term factors loom large once more.


Yeah, I mean, this is like when Enron used to test what the market would bear for electricity. Some's pulled out to take their profits and so the price is coming down, but we're never going back to the $18 a barrel oil of 15, 20 years ago. The bar's been raised for good; get used to it. Even at $80 a barrel, oil's not cheap. And I think this is just a respite before speculators start pumping it up our a$$e(t)s again.
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 09:15:53

Not being a daily oil speculator I look at a longer time frame. More like a 6 month rolling average. But even in a monthly time frame oil has increased (on a weighted daily average) for 7 continuous months. July average prices were still higher than June. Now Aug is another matter...we'll see where that average ends up in Sept.
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby Twilight » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 16:40:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'N')otice that near the end of the article, the author also says this:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat's not to say it won't go up again when the signals change and all those long-term factors loom large once more.


Yes, I was expecting a drop this year, but unlike the professional pundits I was not expecting the fundamental problems to go away. I bet they will be as surprised the next time. And the time after that.
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby Gazzatrone » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 19:05:45

What do you expect from this guy? He is a business writer after, sticking with the tried and tested business model that has been around for years.

That one where all business is powered by a cheap, limitless supply of a finite resource.

I mean seriously.....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut for the time being, a return to a relatively "normal" oil price in the $60 to $80 range would take the sting out of the current inflationary surge, and that in turn would allow the Bank of England to contemplate cutting interest rates to stave off recession and help the housing market. Keep your fingers crossed, and keep your eye on how oil traders react to titbits of bad news.
THE FUTURE IS HISTORY!
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby DantesPeak » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 20:38:33

This is the third or fourth 20 to 30% drop in the last three years. So what makes it a bubble this time?

Also when prices drop, demand destruction reverses and disappears. Dah!
It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
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Re: The great oil bubble has burst

Unread postby yesplease » Fri 08 Aug 2008, 23:43:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'A')lso when prices drop, demand destruction reverses and disappears. Dah!
Well it certainly won't continue forever if prices drop! ;) That being said, there's a pretty big lag between short and long run elasticity, and I think the recent drop in demand and price has to do w/ long run elasticity that some were not counting on, or at least were speculating wouldn't happen.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Professor Membrane', ' ')Not now son, I'm making ... TOAST!
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Have we reached the end of the road for oil?

Unread postby Graeme » Sat 09 Aug 2008, 00:54:56

This story was written in response to yesterday's story: The Great Bubble has Burst.

Have we reached the end of the road for oil?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s a result, it is widely agreed that oil production in the non-Opec world will "peak" - reach its maximum possible level - within two years, if it has not already done so. This means that the huge profits being made by multi-nationals such as Shell or ExxonMobil may turn out to be their last hurrah. "The days of the international oil companies are coming to a glorious end," said Fatih Birol, chief economist of the International Energy Agency, last month. "Their reserves are declining and they will have difficulty accessing new ones."

Unfortunately, this means that the global oil supply will soon depend on Opec as never before. Many analysts suspect that the Opec countries, which claim to hold three quarters of known reserves, have been exaggerating their size for decades - in other words, they too will soon reach the physical limits of production.


telegraph
Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us.
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Re: Have we reached the end of the road for oil?

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 09 Aug 2008, 01:28:25

This is not presented as a general news article representing scientific concensus. It's presented as an editorial, with the disclaimer:

"Petrol prices are set to fall this autumn, but David Strahan argues that oil is now so scarce that it may never be affordable again"

And ending with:

"David Strahan is the author of 'The Last Oil Shock' (John Murray), which is available from Telegraph Books for £8.99 + £1.25 p&p. To order, call 0870 428 4112 or go to books.telegraph.co.uk"

It's far too easy for people to cast these types of articles aside on the basis of an alarmist looking for a quick buck from book sales.

----

Unfortunately, all too much peak oil in the press originates with an individual "chicken little" who is sounding the alarm rather than a neutral party of concerned scientists (such as the IPCC with global warming). It really doesn't matter how big the figure is. T Boone Pickens, for instance, is still an individual and people can easily say the guy's gone senile or just looking to make a buck off of his natural gas holdings.
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Re: Have we reached the end of the road for oil?

Unread postby joewp » Sat 09 Aug 2008, 02:34:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mos6507', '
')It's far too easy for people to cast these types of articles aside on the basis of an alarmist looking for a quick buck from book sales.


Of course it is. It's designed that way to keep the masses out shopping.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Unfortunately, all too much peak oil in the press originates with an individual "chicken little" who is sounding the alarm rather than a neutral party of concerned scientists (such as the IPCC with global warming). It really doesn't matter how big the figure is. T Boone Pickens, for instance, is still an individual and people can easily say the guy's gone senile or just looking to make a buck off of his natural gas holdings.


Which is why the numerous studies cited in our Peak Oil Studies & Energy Reports forum here are never mentioned in the mass media. If the populace was to catch on to the fact that the powers that be know all to well that platitudes such as off-shore drilling and alternative energy are mere ploys to keep them happily spending the fruits of their labors on useless crap, there would be a world-wide revolution.

About the only thing keeping capitalist serfs happily slaving for their masters is the delusion that they too will one day be rich. When the realization hits that it will never happen, all hell will break loose. I'm so glad so many Americans still have guns.
Joe P. joeparente.com
"Only when the last tree is cut; only when the last river is polluted; only when the last fish is caught; only then will they realize that you cannot eat money." - Cree Indian Proverb
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Re: Have we reached the end of the road for oil?

Unread postby Twilight » Sat 09 Aug 2008, 08:46:06

David Strahan is one of the best known business journalists in the UK, so if he is an alarmist book-plugger, everyone complaining about gas prices over here should pretty much shut up and disbelieve their bank statements.

I have read his book incidentally, and recommend it to anyone wanting the story told from a UK perspective. The criticism of government energy policy is spot on and withering. He took them to task on things they take for granted attract no comment.
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