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How Long Do We Have?

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby metalflake » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:28:13

Awe inspiring awareness like that is uncontrovertible.

If you have a solar panel, and two surviving laptops you could make an internet between your house and the neighbors, and you could make an E-box and leave messages for dinner invitations after you finish plowing the fields.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby BigTex » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:32:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pedalling_faster', 'A')nagami was offended by a statement about the wisdom of not letting the "heathens" in Panama have computers. BigTex is just making fun.


What about BigTex being offended by being called stupid, arrogant, etc.?

And there was NEVER any discussion of not letting people in Panama have computers. The good people of Panama can have all the computers they want.

In fact, based upon the free banking zone in Panama, I actually hope they have a lot of computers and plenty of redundancy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i') think you guys should be nicer to Anagami and be glad people in Costa Rica are (or were) part of this community.


anagami and zensui (his former name) and I go way back. We're good buddies and enjoy kidding around with each other.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t reminds me of an incident last July 4 where i used the term "babe" at a July 4 party. one of the older feminists was highly offended. she was so offended she told me to stop emailing her, so i can't even explain to her how my statement was not meant to offend her. it sort of cut right to the heart of political correctness. Rush Limbaugh would say i should be free to use the term "babe". i would say, now that i understand it offends some people, i wouldn't use it around those people.


So, are you poorer for no longer being on good terms with the aging and anal feminist from the party?
:)
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby BigTex » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:39:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'C')omputers and networks can be wisely used.


Never said they couldn't.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you don't want to give the "undeveloped" population the chance, with some honest respect for their ability to use them wisely, then I will oppose this meme.


Never said I didn't want them to have computers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t will be nicer of you, that you don't evade my arguments and point of view with images and phrases that are basically trolling.


You are arguing against a position I have not taken. I'm just practicing my Judo.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uite a show you're making as a moderator. Is this some ego-based whim? Are you still chained to the fetter of arrogance?


Zensui, my friend, this entire silly digression is based upon your complete misunderstanding of what TWilliam and I wrote.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:41:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('metalflake', 'D')issing is asking for trouble.

Years ago, to meet the Queen of England, you had to have a 13 week training course in etiquete.

Why? A mistatement could put her in the hot seat with international repercussions, making war inevitable.

nowadays, who cares, nuke them till they glow


this reminds me of pResident Bush. the situation between Iran and Israel is like a pool of gasoline and some idiot smirking chimp standing on the edge playing with sparklers.

i think a lot of our on-edge-ness as a society is related to the (think of a bad word, multiply by a large number) of the Bush-Cheney administration. our society is in a tenuous place, AND we have little feeling of "hope". so there goes that source of endorphins, the hope feeling (maybe that's why young people like Obama - he makes them feel hopeful, that gets their endorphins going - it's a drug addiction ! 8) )

how i feel is related to what happens in the mid-East. if the war with Iran escalates from its current Cold War state (low-level simmer) ... i think a lot of us would feel a personal line had been crossed. we don't know the exact effect on oil prices of an attack on Iran, or of a possible attack on Israel.

and incidents like that are outside my control. praying doesn't seem to help :oops:

so, big sigh of relief if we get to President Obama without having the current war escalate. if it escalates, and we find ourselves with martial law at home, i think a lot of people will do what people have always done - suffer quietly, & work on their gardens.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:56:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jupiters_release', 'A')nagami,

Arguing whether the internet should spread further couldn't be more absurd on the precipice of global die-off and TEOTWAWKI. Not to mention there's something seriously amiss when your spiritual life is dependent on computers.


Networks can be mantained as long as possible. The Internet was invented to survival nuclear wars after all. Wireless mesh networks using p2p protocols and open source software enhanced locally are quite promising.

My spiritual path doesn't depend on computers, but they do help me read the Pali Tripitaka and discuss Buddhism worldwide (there are few Buddhists in Costa Rica). If anything, I'm ready for my next life. And when T(Flamming)SHTF and my computers are rendered useless, I will default to my now natural state: meditation.

Also, I'm studying computing and networking, for my studies and free lance job I use the Internet as basic tool. Saying to "do without" this tools BEFORE TSHTF is arrogant. I'm defending this objects for the potential they have, including keeping communications with other humans world wide when TSHTF. IMO, the Net may prevent wars. I'm anti-war anyway, but communicating with people from around the world makes the willingness to nuke them much less likely.

Also, don't talk about TEOTWAWKI as a fact to judge others.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby Jack » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 20:02:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'I')'m anti-war anyway, but communicating with people from around the world makes the willingness to nuke them much less likely.


Not always. Not for everyone.

8)

Besides, the internet makes it ever so much easier to monitor communications from around the world. Packet sniffing - it's a beautiful thing.

8)
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 20:06:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pedalling_faster', 'A')nagami was offended by a statement about the wisdom of not letting the "heathens" in Panama have computers. BigTex is just making fun.


What about BigTex being offended by being called stupid, arrogant, etc.?

And there was NEVER any discussion of not letting people in Panama have computers. The good people of Panama can have all the computers they want.

In fact, based upon the free banking zone in Panama, I actually hope they have a lot of computers and plenty of redundancy.


If that's the case, then I may have exagerated and/or misunderstood your words. I apologize for calling you arrogant, but I still think that there's a fragmented undeveloped/developed world view that is not healthy. You still hold this views, even if it's less than what I've seeing in others. But I suggest you reconsider from what is born, in your mind, this jokes about "undeveloped" places.

Also, I think the discussion of undeveloped/developed false dualities is on-topic. The world is much more complex than this naive fragmentation. If we hope that there's a chance of survival after TEOTWAWKI, we must abandon naive and simplistic ideas for a rebirth of a better and wiser civilization.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i') think you guys should be nicer to Anagami and be glad people in Costa Rica are (or were) part of this community.


anagami and zensui (his former name) and I go way back. We're good buddies and enjoy kidding around with each other.


Yes, and I misunderstood part of your posts in this thread. But from where they're born, changed they must be.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t reminds me of an incident last July 4 where i used the term "babe" at a July 4 party. one of the older feminists was highly offended. she was so offended she told me to stop emailing her, so i can't even explain to her how my statement was not meant to offend her. it sort of cut right to the heart of political correctness. Rush Limbaugh would say i should be free to use the term "babe". i would say, now that i understand it offends some people, i wouldn't use it around those people.

So, are you poorer for no longer being on good terms with the aging and anal feminist from the party?

I guess the point is be more respectful in general.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 20:08:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'C')omputers and networks can be wisely used.


Never said they couldn't.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you don't want to give the "undeveloped" population the chance, with some honest respect for their ability to use them wisely, then I will oppose this meme.


Never said I didn't want them to have computers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t will be nicer of you, that you don't evade my arguments and point of view with images and phrases that are basically trolling.


You are arguing against a position I have not taken. I'm just practicing my Judo.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Q')uite a show you're making as a moderator. Is this some ego-based whim? Are you still chained to the fetter of arrogance?


Zensui, my friend, this entire silly digression is based upon your complete misunderstanding of what TWilliam and I wrote.

yeah, sorry for calling you arrogant and others... However, the jokes+images doesn't clarify much your position in a fragmented world view.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 20:09:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'T')hanks. I think the base of this arrogant ideas and jokes comes from the ignorance of dividing the world in "undeveloped" and "developed".

Costa Rica has a better public services, in general, than USA. From potable water (although this days there was a failure) to medical services. Also, it has more than 80% of electrical generation and doesn't delude itself with the God of War (as the USA).


America's technology development is quite stunning. thinking specifically about computer graphics technology, from the first Pillsbury Doughman commercial (for whom a man named Carl Rosendahl gets the credit) to the present state, where everybody who is so inclined can animate their own Doughman, and give him realistic looking hair. so leaves you with the feeling, this society has some pretty cool things.

doesn't delude itself with the God of War (as the USA) <== that's the clincher. it permeates American society. i am a semi-retired War Toy Boy (weapons designer, i worked mostly on microwave radios and their digital successors, as just another cog in the machine.) i'd go out to lunch with my co-workers and catch a little flak for being pro-union. heaven help me if i express anti-war sentiment.

actually, the day after 9-11 somebody in the lunch room tossed me the question, "OK, smartypants liberal, what's your suggestion ?" i said, "conduct foreign policy in a way that doesn't make enemies". that, other people found quite entertaining.

what the God of War, as you say, costs America and Americans, i can not quite say. i guess to do that, it might help to live outside the United States, or in an Amish community.

just to be clear, i'm not drawing a connection between the lunch-room at a defense contractor and the verbal jousting that goes on here, which i think is more like American fraternity mates razzing each other.

as far as health care, i don't want to say, this sucks and this sucks and that sucks, which i would end up doing if i talk about American health care. i can compare it to Canadian health care.

if you are in Costa Rica, and you need to be treated for a badly cut foot, a simple slightly-low-thyroid condition, a fairly straightforward chronic pain condition, and a request for a sleeping pill that isn't stupefying - how would it work ?

in Canada, you would go to a clinic, where a doctor has an office. pay $35 for the office visit, there's a lab down the hall that does the blood test for the thyroid. so i was describing a market basket of things that i went to a clinic in San Francisco for. 4 office visits, $140, in Canada.

when i took those 4 things to an appointment at a clinic in San Francisco about a year ago, as an example - the image that stays in my mind - the whole clinic administration staff stops and confers for about 5 minutes because i asked a question. Then one of them went and got a doctor. i was amazed to see so many people working so hard answering a simple question.
Last edited by pedalling_faster on Sun 06 Jul 2008, 20:56:52, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby Daniel_Plainview » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 20:12:10

I've gone on record to opine that global markets will collapse in "September." Just to clarify: this could mean that US markets will collapse in August, and that the global market collapse / meltdown won't actually culminate until September.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 20:22:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DoomWarrior', 'I')'ve gone on record to opine that global markets will collapse in "September." Just to clarify: this could mean that US markets will collapse in August, and that the global market collapse / meltdown won't actually culminate until September.


polyshing your crystal ball? lol... although I think your prediction has over 75% probability of happening. :)
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby Revi » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 20:31:53

There are people who think that the oil market will collapse in August and September too. I really have no idea what will happen.

I think the longer term trend for oil is up and up. The stock market is for the bulls and the bears. Us pigs get slaughtered either way, whether the market goes up or down.

I can't see it getting all that much worse. It's already down something like 20% from it's high. The stock market is no place for regular people to make money any more.

I'm putting my money (if I ever get any) in real things from here on out. At least you can use them.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 20:36:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DoomWarrior', 'I')'ve gone on record to opine that global markets will collapse in "September." Just to clarify: this could mean that US markets will collapse in August, and that the global market collapse / meltdown won't actually culminate until September.


http://money.cnn.com/data/world_markets/

that URL might be helpful, it's the World Markets page at CNN. most of the time the US market tracks with the European markets.

US markets dropped a whole bunch in June, what, 20% ? if they drop that much in July, that takes it from 11K to 9K. if it drops another 20% in August, from 9K to 7K. plus i'm rounding off.

when you say, collapse in August, do you mean collapse at a faster rate than in June ? because the way things are going, it's headed for 7K by the end of August. i think that would give people the jitters.

i think one of the games they'll play is to rotate some of the DOW components out of the Dow, and rotate in profitable companies like Google. then maybe announce it on the back page and wait a few months before it gets to the front page.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby jupiters_release » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 20:39:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', '
')
Networks can be mantained as long as possible. The Internet was invented to survival nuclear wars after all. Wireless mesh networks using p2p protocols and open source software enhanced locally are quite promising.


Are you familiar with the Olduvai Gorge Theory?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', '
')
Also, I'm studying computing and networking, for my studies and free lance job I use the Internet as basic tool. Saying to "do without" this tools BEFORE TSHTF is arrogant.


No one else but you have said "do without" now.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', '
')
I'm anti-war anyway, but communicating with people from around the world makes the willingness to nuke them much less likely.


Policy makers will do want they want regardless of what we want and whether we communicate it across the internet, and if you haven't noticed that's how it's always been.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', '
')
Also, don't talk about TEOTWAWKI as a fact to judge others.


TEOTWAWKI and die-off are not only fact, it's history. The collective spiritual consciousness isn't far from extinction, you're only confused because it hasn't manifested in the physical yet.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby Daniel_Plainview » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 21:03:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pedalling_faster', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DoomWarrior', 'I')'ve gone on record to opine that global markets will collapse in "September." Just to clarify: this could mean that US markets will collapse in August, and that the global market collapse / meltdown won't actually culminate until September.


http://money.cnn.com/data/world_markets/

that URL might be helpful, it's the World Markets page at CNN. most of the time the US market tracks with the European markets.

US markets dropped a whole bunch in June, what, 20% ? if they drop that much in July, that takes it from 11K to 9K. if it drops another 20% in August, from 9K to 7K. plus i'm rounding off.

when you say, collapse in August, do you mean collapse at a faster rate than in June ? because the way things are going, it's headed for 7K by the end of August. i think that would give people the jitters.

i think one of the games they'll play is to rotate some of the DOW components out of the Dow, and rotate in profitable companies like Google. then maybe announce it on the back page and wait a few months before it gets to the front page.


When I say "collapse," I mean GAME OVER ....... I mean that the equity and financial markets will have finally come to realize and appreciate the more serious ramifications of PO, and the catastrophic effect PO will have on earnings, inflation, employment, consumer spending, consumer expectations, etc.

Simply put, the moment the markets become as informed as the folks here on PO.COM, the markets will collapse. GAME OVER.

I think even Dubya will catch on by August. :lol:
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby DantesPeak » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 21:12:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DoomWarrior', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pedalling_faster', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DoomWarrior', 'I')'ve gone on record to opine that global markets will collapse in "September." Just to clarify: this could mean that US markets will collapse in August, and that the global market collapse / meltdown won't actually culminate until September.


http://money.cnn.com/data/world_markets/

that URL might be helpful, it's the World Markets page at CNN. most of the time the US market tracks with the European markets.

US markets dropped a whole bunch in June, what, 20% ? if they drop that much in July, that takes it from 11K to 9K. if it drops another 20% in August, from 9K to 7K. plus i'm rounding off.

when you say, collapse in August, do you mean collapse at a faster rate than in June ? because the way things are going, it's headed for 7K by the end of August. i think that would give people the jitters.

i think one of the games they'll play is to rotate some of the DOW components out of the Dow, and rotate in profitable companies like Google. then maybe announce it on the back page and wait a few months before it gets to the front page.


When I say "collapse," I mean GAME OVER ....... I mean that the equity and financial markets will have finally come to realize and appreciate the more serious ramifications of PO, and the catastrophic effect PO will have on earnings, inflation, employment, consumer spending, consumer expectations, etc.

Simply put, the moment the markets become as informed as the folks here on PO.COM, the markets will collapse. GAME OVER.

I think even Dubya will catch on by August. :lol:


Very interesting comments. We've had other threads here on a stock market collapse - but this is well beyond a stock market collapse, and even beyond what I've been predicting, a credit collapse.

Perhaps you could elaborate and start a seperate thread on this issue.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby Heineken » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 21:17:18

One of the difficulties here is defining the object; i.e., how long do we have UNTIL WHAT? I have trouble with that myself. I guess the answer would be, Until the bad external trends have a sufficiently stinging personal impact, beyond some threshold that I won't recognize until I cross it.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 21:44:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'O')ne of the difficulties here is defining the object; i.e., how long do we have UNTIL WHAT? I have trouble with that myself. I guess the answer would be, Until the bad external trends have a sufficiently stinging personal impact, beyond some threshold that I won't recognize until I cross it.


i think the Bush Cheney administration is likely to extract some bizarre political gain from a major stock market crash, which in this case would be to give Israel a thumbs up on attacking Iran.

the goal being to make Iran someone we can blame our economic problems on.

"everything was OK until Iran attacked us" "and that turned a recession into a depression"

the US is already engaged in a low level series of attacks on Iran, or at least things that we would consider an act of war if somebody crossed from Mexico into the US, and did them to the US.

i don't think the stock market dropping to 7000 is that big a deal, it re-traces its steps to where it was in what, 1990 ? i guess then we would find out what a bubble free US economy looks like, with $140 barrel oil, and that will be a huge deal, though hard to visualize.

if the US started making things again, like in the 1980's, i would like that.

i swear, i think having madmen in the White House does complicate the situation !
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby TWilliam » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 22:25:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'H')ow long do we have? I don't know, but eagerness to embrace the systems and ideas that have created our troubles strikes me as especially un-enlightened.


This stands at the heart of what I was getting at. I was never advocating "deny undeveloped countries access while keeping it for ourselves". The point I was making is that western (capitalist) expansionism as an ideology is cancerous, and providing technology to cultures who were heretofore ignorant of its existence is not humanitarianism, it is a primary means by which that cancer is spread. Its presence creates demand for a consumerist lifestyle where none previously existed, a lifestyle which I detest here as much as anywhere else, and while I may make limited use of it, that is because I have no alternative since it is the culture in which I was raised and in which I am embedded.

And please, no ridiculous 'if you don't like it then why don't you leave' crap. If I were dropped naked into the middle of a tropical jungle, I'd have about as much chance of surviving as anagami would being dropped naked into the middle of Antarctica. One does not simply 'leave' their culture.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 23:37:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', '(')...)
I'm putting my money (if I ever get any) in real things from here on out. At least you can use them.


me too... I should have more water, food and toilet paper. And a bit of electronics...
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