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How Long Do We Have?

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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 15:06:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'a')nagami = not a good advertisement for Buddhism. :(


On the contrary, I'm defending my freedom to read the Dharma, specificaly the Pali Tripitaka in accesstoinsight.org. And to eventually translate it to Spanish. In Costa Rica, because of tradition, there are no copies (at least that I'm aware of) of the Pali Tripitaka. In fact, there are no translations to spanish, most are in english... and the access to them is usualy USING THE INTERNET for us buddhists in the west.

You don't have an idea of how wrong your "no Net and computers" advice is, or you're in denial of how arrogant and ignorant it is.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby BigTex » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 15:07:11

You know, I looked back over my posts, and I'm not sure I even made a suggestion.

All I did was make an observation that the introduction of marketing tools to developing markets has a way of creating demand for stuff that wasn't previously present.

I suppose enlightened people will use computers and the internet for enlightened purposes. Unenlightened people will probably download pop music and porn.

Perhaps the enlightened people who dug the Panama Canal used their Sears catalogs to wipe their bottoms without bothering to flip through the pages to see all of the cargo they were missing out on.

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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 15:22:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'Y')ou know, I looked back over my posts, and I'm not sure I even made a suggestion.

All I did was make an observation that the introduction of marketing tools to developing markets has a way of creating demand for stuff that wasn't previously present.

I suppose enlightened people will use computers and the internet for enlightened purposes. Unenlightened people will probably download pop music and porn.

Perhaps the enlightened people who dug the Panama Canal used their Sears catalogs to wipe their bottoms without bothering to flip through the pages to see all of the cargo they were missing out on.
(...)


A catalog of useless stuff is worthless. The Internet and the Net are worth as much as the information that is processed in them. Anyone that is on the Path towards Nirvana can use the Net to search for Dharma, comparing various sources, and contribute to its understanding.

Even the comparison of the catalog with the computers and nets is ignorant and arogant. The same "for you it's worthless, but I will keep using it" applies.

Oh, and you did suggest that in our "developing" contries we better not get computers! (free or not)
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby BigTex » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 15:41:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'Y')ou know, I looked back over my posts, and I'm not sure I even made a suggestion.

All I did was make an observation that the introduction of marketing tools to developing markets has a way of creating demand for stuff that wasn't previously present.

I suppose enlightened people will use computers and the internet for enlightened purposes. Unenlightened people will probably download pop music and porn.

Perhaps the enlightened people who dug the Panama Canal used their Sears catalogs to wipe their bottoms without bothering to flip through the pages to see all of the cargo they were missing out on.
(...)


A catalog of useless stuff is worthless.


Then you are obviously not familiar with the range of products available in the old Sears-Roebuck catalogs. You could buy houses out of these catalogs and they would ship it to you in boxes with instructions for assembly. A house is not "useless stuff."

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Internet and the Net are worth as much as the information that is processed in them. Anyone that is on the Path towards Nirvana can use the Net to search for Dharma, comparing various sources, and contribute to its understanding.


I don't disagree. The old Sears catalog could be used to obtain shelter, which would enable one to ponder higher truths. Searching for Dharma is going to fall above searching for shelter on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ven the comparison of the catalog with the computers and nets is ignorant and arogant. The same "for you it's worthless, but I will keep using it" applies.


There is nothing wrong with comparing a printed piece of information to an electronic piece of information.

I didn't say it was worthless for you. I actually suggested it would be the spur to greater economic productivity, which is actually quite worthful. I just questioned whether, on balance, it would be considered a positive change. I don't know the answer.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')h, and you did suggest that in our "developing" contries we better not get computers! (free or not)


Show me where I said that. You are mistaken.

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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 16:03:03

BigTex, it's in my first reply in this thread. But it was mostly Twilliam.

Basically it started with questioning the value of giving computers to "undeveloped" countries, then you compared it with a catalog. This comes from a naive view of "undeveloped" countries, and is arrogant in the sense that "for them shouldn't use computers, but us can still use them".

Even if I question the OLPC project (although it's mostly because how it was politiced and became unsincere at the end), I don't question the value of computing and networking in ANY country. However, they must be used (on ALL countries) within environmental standards, not thought as disposable tools (it helps if Unix becomes standard) and used wisely.

I'm starting a topic on the general issue on Open Discussion, this is getting off-topic. And stop posting images to make a straw man out of my main point: computers and networks are useful in all countries.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby BigTex » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 16:17:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'A')nd stop posting images to make a straw man out of my main point: computers and networks are useful in all countries.


"If those laptops have Celeron processors or less than one gig of RAM we're going to have long pig for dinner."


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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby TWilliam » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 16:53:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'B')igTex, it's in my first reply in this thread. But it was mostly Twilliam.

etc. etc.


Alright well... you've apparently either failed to grasp my point twice now or you're deliberately ignoring it. Feel free to continue believing that westernization of your country is 'a good thing' (not that it's likely to continue much longer anyway); time will tell who the genuinely ignorant one is here...


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'c')omputers and networks are useful in all countries.


So are guns, and strip mines, and clear-cutting, and industrial farming, and... and... and...

Lots of things are 'useful'; that doesn't make them wise.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 17:50:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'A')nd stop posting images to make a straw man out of my main point: computers and networks are useful in all countries.


"If those laptops have Celeron processors or less than one gig of RAM we're going to have long pig for dinner."


(...)


Now you're trolling. Couldn't you add something meaninful to this conversation? Either way it's off-topic. When you calm and stop making straw man, then you can go to the thread in open discussion about the Net.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby vetusfirma » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 18:24:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'I') was surprised that you apparently didn't put much tought in your opinion... "cold water" so to speak. Computers and the Net are tools, potentialy very useful for that which matters. Your "suggestion", from my perspective (of just the country I live), sounds quite arrogant.

Think more when you make such "suggestions".


I suggest YOU 'think more' before launching personal attacks against posters on this board based on an apparently limited understanding of what was being said to begin with.

Nowhere did BigTex or myself imply that people ANYwhere should be denied an education. What we are saying is that these 'tools', as you call them, are indeed tools, but not in the manner which you assume. They are, first and foremost, tools of capitalists whose first priority is increased profits, and their 'charity' in providing them for you is identical to the 'charity' of the drug dealer who gives you a few 'free samples' in order to get you hooked. They don't give a rip about 'educating' people in developing countries. All they are concerned with is 'developing MARKETS' for their products. We've been RAISED with these technologies, we KNOW the power of their influence on society, and believe me, the people of your country will NOT like where they ultimately take you.


Maybe I'm a "rare" example of computing and networking use, because I surely prefer having this tools than not having them. I've access to a lot of valuable information (accesstoinsight.org may be the best example of this), that I will otherwise have not access.

You 2 are basically "kindly" suggesting that I do without this tools and information. That means that I cann't read more about Buddhism, nor help translate from english to spanish Buddhist articles in Wikipedia, and that almost all my years of University are worthless and I should "do without" them, because my country is "not worth this tools and information". That I stop studying for an international cerfication because it's e-learning, EVEN IF in Costa Rica the market for networking needs DOUBLE the current proffesionals. Also, that I blindly take this "kind" advice and STFU, believing that this tools are "evil" because they're "capitalist poison"... EVEN if about 50% of my software is FREE and OPEN source.

Do you not understand? Are you so ignorant that still think you're right in this aspect? What do you want, an apology? Your advice is quite passive agressive if you look it in the perspective of those which it is meant to.


anagami: you can't attack the 'big boys' and get away with it. These people have been PO gods for a long time, at least 2 years, and are not to be trifled with. You cross the 'gods' at your own peril.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby BigTex » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 18:35:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'A')nd stop posting images to make a straw man out of my main point: computers and networks are useful in all countries.


"If those laptops have Celeron processors or less than one gig of RAM we're going to have long pig for dinner."


(...)


Now you're trolling. Couldn't you add something meaninful to this conversation? Either way it's off-topic. When you calm and stop making straw man, then you can go to the thread in open discussion about the Net.


My friend, it's all beautifully on-topic.

"How Long Do We Have?"

You have slipped into a cargoist delusion that is so obvious I am surprised you don't see it.

You are mad because you think someone is trying to take away your Sears catalog, and what I am suggesting is simply that perhaps the Sears catalog is not the answer for any of us.

But you can keep it if you want to. Sort of like a relic or a charm, I suppose.

How long do we have? I don't know, but eagerness to embrace the systems and ideas that have created our troubles strikes me as especially un-enlightened.

YMMV.

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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby BigTex » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 18:50:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vetusfirma', 'a')nagami: you can't attack the 'big boys' and get away with it. These people have been PO gods for a long time, at least 2 years, and are not to be trifled with. You cross the 'gods' at your own peril.


That's right.

We're gods.

Trifle with us, and you will incur our wrath (lightning bolts, lava flows, etc.).

BTW, here are a few shots from "Mount Olympus":

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Zeus takes a stroll while meditating on mortal mischief:

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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby Zeeea » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 18:50:09

this is our last normal year according to this Nowegian Politician ...

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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby pedalling_faster » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 18:56:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'A')nd stop posting images to make a straw man out of my main point: computers and networks are useful in all countries.


"If those laptops have Celeron processors or less than one gig of RAM we're going to have long pig for dinner."


Image


Anagami was offended by a statement about the wisdom of not letting the "heathens" in Panama have computers. BigTex is just making fun.

i think you guys should be nicer to Anagami and be glad people in Costa Rica are (or were) part of this community.

it reminds me of an incident last July 4 where i used the term "babe" at a July 4 party. one of the older feminists was highly offended. she was so offended she told me to stop emailing her, so i can't even explain to her how my statement was not meant to offend her. it sort of cut right to the heart of political correctness. Rush Limbaugh would say i should be free to use the term "babe". i would say, now that i understand it offends some people, i wouldn't use it around those people.
- - -
How many years do we have before the end of the world as we know it? How long do you think YOU have?
- - -

as far as the thread title, how long do we have, that implies some sort of incident or change in affairs. like, the LA riots, as a permanent fixture, where every trip to the store carries a real risk of getting the Reginald Denny treatment (i'm amazed his skull healed from that attack). where the people that have money to spend at the store cower in their homes, don't park their cars on the street because they'll get drilled for gasoline. and where US troops & national guardspeople are brought home to bring "peace" to the homeland.

how long i have ? - i don't see/ feel a step function, just a gradual deterioration in what was once an approximation of a civil society. i'm out of debt & have a little savings so i guess that helps as far as not feeling trapped.

the 7 1/2 years of the Bush presidency, plus 9-11, has been such a bludgeoning, maybe it's helped me develop "callouses" or something. now that i see what the "rules of the game" are, i can play by those rules. i would rather just eke out some small oasis of peace.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby metalflake » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:05:36

As we become increasingly uncivilized using modern comments that in the past would seem as rude, we can only expect the historically proven result of conflict without adequate resolution. Countries can not live next to each other peaceably without civil rules of conversation, etiquette and behaviour.

Now, we have trained our children in sarcasm, jokes, inuendos, and in-your-face lifestyle, the result is certain. We openly enter the social miasma of being smart-asses in casual conversation, just for a joke, the inevitable nuclear exchange is not only quaranteed, but impending.

Try that the next time you enter blood or crips territory and see what happens to you.

Dissing is asking for trouble.

Years ago, to meet the Queen of England, you had to have a 13 week training course in etiquete.

Why? A mistatement could put her in the hot seat with international repercussions, making war inevitable.

nowadays, who cares, nuke them till they glow

and they soon will.

Hey its not our kids fault, they learned it and think nothing about irritating anyone.

Soon the nations will irritate themselves to the point of destruction, and you can thank the onion.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby Ludi » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:09:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('metalflake', '
')Now, we have gone to the social miasma of being smart-asses just for a joke, the inevitable nuclear exchange is not only quaranteed, but impending.


Who knew smart-asses would be the cause of the downfall of civilization?
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:11:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TWilliam', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'B')igTex, it's in my first reply in this thread. But it was mostly Twilliam.

etc. etc.


Alright well... you've apparently either failed to grasp my point twice now or you're deliberately ignoring it. Feel free to continue believing that westernization of your country is 'a good thing' (not that it's likely to continue much longer anyway); time will tell who the genuinely ignorant one is here...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', 'c')omputers and networks are useful in all countries.


So are guns, and strip mines, and clear-cutting, and industrial farming, and... and... and...

Lots of things are 'useful'; that doesn't make them wise.


And what's your point then? That computers are "evil capitalist propaganda"? Kind of hypocrite saying freely w-e you want using a computer, to complain about them.

Useful for potentially wise uses. lol, and you're comparing computers with guns now. Having a computer is not "westernization", it's just a tool (which I personaly use, besides other uses, to know more about the East).
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby metalflake » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:14:04

I have three questions for you:

1. Who invented the internet?

2. Who is technologically superior?

3. Who is going to destroy the world?

Resistance is futile, you will be assimilated.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:21:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('anagami', '
')(...)


Now you're trolling. Couldn't you add something meaninful to this conversation? Either way it's off-topic. When you calm and stop making straw man, then you can go to the thread in open discussion about the Net.


My friend, it's all beautifully on-topic.

"How Long Do We Have?"

You have slipped into a cargoist delusion that is so obvious I am surprised you don't see it.

You are mad because you think someone is trying to take away your Sears catalog, and what I am suggesting is simply that perhaps the Sears catalog is not the answer for any of us.

But you can keep it if you want to. Sort of like a relic or a charm, I suppose.

How long do we have? I don't know, but eagerness to embrace the systems and ideas that have created our troubles strikes me as especially un-enlightened.

YMMV.
(...)[/quote]

Work within the system to change it. I was naively heroic and thought it was possible to "break the system". While it has not collapsed, we have to work within it to change it for the better.

Computers and networks can be wisely used. If you don't want to give the "undeveloped" population the chance, with some honest respect for their ability to use them wisely, then I will oposse this memes. It will be nicer of you, that you don't evade my arguments and point of view with images and phrases that are basically trolling. Quite a show you're making as a moderator. Is this some ego-based whim? Are you still chained to the fetter of arrogance?
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby jupiters_release » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:22:19

Anagami,

Arguing whether the internet should spread further couldn't be more absurd on the precipice of global die-off and TEOTWAWKI. Not to mention there's something seriously amiss when your spiritual life is dependent on computers.
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Re: How Long Do We Have?

Unread postby bodigami » Sun 06 Jul 2008, 19:24:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pedalling_faster', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '(')...)


Anagami was offended by a statement about the wisdom of not letting the "heathens" in Panama have computers. BigTex is just making fun.

i think you guys should be nicer to Anagami and be glad people in Costa Rica are (or were) part of this community.

it reminds me of an incident last July 4 where i used the term "babe" at a July 4 party. one of the older feminists was highly offended. she was so offended she told me to stop emailing her, so i can't even explain to her how my statement was not meant to offend her. it sort of cut right to the heart of political correctness. Rush Limbaugh would say i should be free to use the term "babe". i would say, now that i understand it offends some people, i wouldn't use it around those people.


Thanks. I think the base of this arrogant ideas and jokes comes from the ignorance of dividing the world in "undeveloped" and "developed".

Costa Rica has a better public services, in general, than USA. From potable water (although this days there was a failure) to medical services. Also, it has more than 80% of electrical generation and doesn't delude itself with the God of War (as the USA). I question the notion of Costa Rica being "less worthy" of having computers and networks than the USA because someone said that we live in 2 different worlds.

That's ignorance leading to suffering for those that hold such non-sense. I thought peakoil.com active members knew better.
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