[bodigami]

As I understand it; the first years post-PO, both doomers and cornucopians will be right... but not completely. There will be new innovating technologies; but they will not be widespread... The Industrial Civilization will not come to a halt in days... it will slowly collapse. The 2 key points of our survival are:

1) how humans react to a painful transition towards an unclear future... no-one-wins nuclear and bio-chemical wars is possible if we ALL do not act correctly

2) how much time can nature [s]support[/s] tolerate human life until humanity awakens to ecological truths and start reducing births... human extinction is possible if we ALL do not act correctly

I'm neither doomer nor cornucopian... that's why I'm using for now the term post-harmaggedonist; humanity must survive but if it doesn't awaken to natural harmony it may as well be extinct.

[Revi]

I think it will be a little of both. Things seem to be neither as bad as the doomers posit nor as good as the cornies think they will be.

There will be those who move into alternatives and reduce their useage of fossil fuels through efficiency and conservation. They may be able to live a decent life.

The problem is that a lot of people don't want to prepare for a future with less energy. Therefore the doomers have a point when they say that those who prepare are going to have to fight off those who don't.

There may be places that fare better than others. A good example is Costa Rica. Instead of having wars against their own people like the other Central American countries they installed water purification plants and promoted ecotourism. Cooperation worked better as a strategy for that country.

But, will the Ticos be swamped by refugees from the failed states around them?

Only time will tell...

Rob Holmgren (founder of permaculture) says that in nature as energy supplies grow the best strategy is competition.

As they dwindle the strategy that works is cooperation.

[Quagmire]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o I am curious as to how the sh*t rotates before it hits the fan.

[hironegro]

Neither. It’s like with the cold war; Were you basically had the two different wings of the same university sociology dept. playing game of chess to find out which system runs society the best. And using the third world as their chessboard.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('hironegro', 'N')either. It’s like with the cold war; Were you basically had the two different wings of the same university sociology dept. playing game of chess to find out which system runs society the best. And using the third world as their chessboard.

[Revi]

I think the reason the cold war worked so well was the power we controlled, with fossil fuels. We aren't going to have that kind of power in the 21st century, so there won't be a bipolar world. There will be all sorts of alliances and intrigues, but in the end the control of the world will be doled back out to the individual states, or even to smaller units. Like the way that the Roman empire devolved into many states.

[HEADER_RACK]

Ridiculous question : Cornucopians don't believe in shit hitting the fan

[mercurygirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'R')ob Holmgren (founder of permaculture) says that in nature as energy supplies grow the best strategy is competition.
As they dwindle the strategy that works is cooperation.

[PrairieMule]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('HEADER_RACK', 'R')idiculous question : Cornucopians don't believe in crap hitting the fan

[Ayoob]

I would like to suggest that the site owners force forum participants to choose, one time and one time only, which of those subforums they can participate in.

The cornucopians can rant on about their nonsense without being woken up by the clear headed and serious doomers, who will in turn be left alone to pursue their own interests.

The agnostics of Peak Oil, the Moderates, can be conveniently ignored by both camps.

Once your choice is made the other options disappear from your list.

You must be a logged-in member to see ANY of the three. In your profile, you choose which camp you belong to, and that's it. You see only that forum and are permanently excluded from participation in the other two.

That's my suggestion.

[Laromi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayoob', 'I') would like to suggest that the site owners force forum participants to choose, one time and one time only, which of those subforums they can participate in.
The cornucopians can rant on about their nonsense without being woken up by the clear headed and serious doomers, who will in turn be left alone to pursue their own interests.

[JohnDenver]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayoob', 'I') would like to suggest that the site owners force forum participants to choose, one time and one time only, which of those subforums they can participate in.

The cornucopians can rant on about their nonsense without being woken up by the clear headed and serious doomers, who will in turn be left alone to pursue their own interests.

[vtsnowedin]

If you divide up into like minded camps it becomes a circular fireing squad or a group of bobble headed dolls noddding agreement with each other. Better to have contentious debate and have winning arguments coupled with unfolding events move people from one camp to the other.
Doomers arn't born they are made.

[Quinny]

The problem I have with the OP is that although I'm definately a doomer in terms of the situation, I cannot help but hope that if it's a Fast Crash it might end up a better world for those that make it through.

On the other hand if it's a Slow Crash then the doomer scenario will be extended but we won't see the sudden collapse, and it might be our children that have to deal with the worst. Resource depletion is more likely to be more extensive in this case.

The true cornucopian believes in technical fix and believes you can break the laws of maths and physics to allow life to go on as normal or with a slight adjustment in lifestyles.

[eXpat]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayoob', 'I') would like to suggest that the site owners force forum participants to choose, one time and one time only, which of those subforums they can participate in.

The cornucopians can rant on about their nonsense without being woken up by the clear headed and serious doomers, who will in turn be left alone to pursue their own interests.

[Tyler_JC]

And why would the Cornucopians want to talk with each other?

All they would do is share news clips and talk about how cool all of the new technofixes are...that would get boring...fast.

It's much more fun to share these news clips with doomers and watch them blow a gasket.

[Ayoob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JohnDenver', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayoob', 'I') would like to suggest that the site owners force forum participants to choose, one time and one time only, which of those subforums they can participate in.

The cornucopians can rant on about their nonsense without being woken up by the clear headed and serious doomers, who will in turn be left alone to pursue their own interests.