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Cornucopians vs Doomers

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 00:44:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', 'S')o what's this about "stir(ring) up those who oppose a flat tax" ? I really don't understand your concern. What's wrong with tossing out this information? The more we understand Ponzi schemes, 3-card monte, etc. the more enlightened we become.



There's nothing wrong with tossing out the information - it's just (largely) pointless. The poor are often ill-educated, so they generally won't understand the issues. And, too, in my corner of the world, illiteracy is at 27%, with functional illiteracy above 40%.


Until they find out that you have hood-winked them. The right-wing pundit Cal Thomas recently said pretty much the same thing you said, stating blatantly the fact that Fox News and other conservative outlets are running out of "trailer-trash" (his words, not mine) to recruit from. I suppose a few of the ill-educated people won't cotton to that statement, should the media ever decide to release the hounds on this ceaseless cascade of condescension. You should read "What's the matter with Kansas?" to find out why people don't necessarily act in their best interests. Should this tide turn, the upper-class should watch out. The huge immigrant protests in LA, Chicago, Dallas, and elsewhere are a good example of this!

Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way with the rest of the world. I presume that many of the people of the Middle East you would consider ill-educated, but try getting dropped in the middle of one of those countries and try to survive based on your intellectualized negotiating skills. You would be lucky to escape with your shorts intact. They have thousands of years of a head start on understanding how to separate said shorts from said easy mark. Alas, that is the global economy that we now face.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 00:49:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', 'A')t least a progressive tax keeps the pain internal.
Exactly why would we want to keep the pain internal????????


Because my ethical standards do not support the idea of applying a Ponzi scheme to foreign investors and hoping they take the bait. Do we base our continuing economic success on tricking investors?


Its worked well for us in the past, and shows no signs of changing.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')I have long considered the idea that engaging in a conflict in the Middle East is ridiculous. And this has nothing to do with military might. It has to do with deal-making. Babylonia and Mesopotamia were the birthplaces of bartering and negotiations, with much of it under-handed. If you think the USA has any great skill at this, think again, as the people from the old countries have practiced this for thousands of years and we have done it for a couple of centuries. I suppose we can give it a shot, and go toe-to-toe with them, but in the end they have the oil, after all, and that remains the ultimate negotiating chip.


They have oil.

We have grain and the ability to turn as much, or as little of the worlds supply of it as we see fit, into inedible ethanol.

I think those that choose to play nicely on our terms may fair better in the long term. So far, they seem to understand and are playing nicely. Good for them, good for us. Double Happiness.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 00:52:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'I') understand that you believe this to be a bad idea. You do have to admit that with just a little inside info or insight one could make an absolute killing in a metastable market. If one were so inclined...


The only one to make money on a Ponzi scheme is the first guy. Since you are writing on this forum and not doing your homework on the metastable market, you are by definition not the first.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 01:01:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', 'Y')ou should read "What's the matter with Kansas?" to find out why people don't necessarily act in their best interests.


What you really mean, of course, is why don't these people act according to what we (the left) feel is in their best interests.

Fortunately for the right, New Englanders and Californians would rather force these folks to acknowledge a gay marriage and take away their handguns; rather than have their vote. Not sure I understand why lefties are like that, but its not my problem.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '{')rant about foreigner in Arab lands}


This goes with anywhere in the world nowdays. You can't expect to go into a foreign country, meet them head on, and expect to come out on top of the negotiation. Place a carrier battle group within range of their desalinization plants or port terminals, and you can do a bit better. Station a 100,000 member rapid strike force on their border, and things can be positively friendly.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 01:10:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')Its worked well for us in the past, and shows no signs of changing.

Incredible. A national debt and deficit that keeps growing and shows no signs of changing slope, will work for us in the future, forever and always?

For any ongoing Ponzi scheme, you can always say that it worked well in the past and shows no signs of changing -- until it collapses, of course. Every Ponzi scheme will eventually fail.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 01:13:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', 'T')he only one to make money on a Ponzi scheme is the first guy. Since you are writing on this forum and not doing your homework on the metastable market, you are by definition not the first.


Nahh, the first guy tells his friends, and they as a group help fleece thousands of gullibles. I'm not really much into the money race, so I'm neither ponzi promoter, nor ponzi contributer; though I have little sympathy for the contributors. I do enjoy watching the show and calling the game.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 01:18:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')Its worked well for us in the past, and shows no signs of changing.

Incredible. A national debt and deficit that keeps growing and shows no signs of changing slope, will work for us in the future, forever and always?

For any ongoing Ponzi scheme, you can always say that it worked well in the past and shows no signs of changing -- until it collapses, of course. Every Ponzi scheme will eventually fail.


Except when the guy running the scheme has the biggest guns and the largest group of enforcers. Then they stop the scheme dead and tell everyone else they can either go home or die.

You didn't think that gigantic DoD budget was to spread peace and democracy did you?
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 01:29:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', 'Y')ou should read "What's the matter with Kansas?" to find out why people don't necessarily act in their best interests.


What you really mean, of course, is why don't these people act according to what we (the left) feel is in their best interests.


No, Jack said they don't mind being ripped off because they are too stupid to care. On the other hand, I think the millions of protesters were complaining about the possibility of the ultimate rip-off -- getting kicked out of the country! Think about that, is there anything else but what we feel (the left) is in their best interests, i.e. to stay in the country? So what I am saying is that all that has to happen is for some other issue to rise above another in terms of priority. As the immigration issue shows, this can indeed happen.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 01:42:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', '
')No, Jack said they don't mind being ripped off because they are too stupid to care.

I read it as too stupid to figure it out.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')As the immigration issue shows, this can indeed happen.


If you think the immigration issue works in favor of the left, you guys really are sunk.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 02:38:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'E')xcept when the guy running the scheme has the biggest guns and the largest group of enforcers. Then they stop the scheme dead and tell everyone else they can either go home or die.

You didn't think that gigantic DoD budget was to spread peace and democracy did you?


The stupid Neo-con philosophy, ala the Plan for New America Century.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 02:47:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', '
')No, Jack said they don't mind being ripped off because they are too stupid to care.

I read it as too stupid to figure it out.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')As the immigration issue shows, this can indeed happen.


If you think the immigration issue works in favor of the left, you guys really are sunk.


I said no such thing, just that a group of so-called "ignorant masses" could make themselves heard above that of the so-called important conservative issues of gun control, etc.

Overall, it actually works in favor of the right, because it feeds their racist and dominionist impulses. I don't consider this working but the right-wing wackos and their listeners do, at least according to what I have heard on wingnut radio.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:00:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', '
')Overall, it actually works in favor of the right, because it feeds their racist and dominionist impulses. I don't consider this working but the right-wing wackos and their listeners do, at least according to what I have heard on wingnut radio.


I don't know whether they're wingnuts or racists, or just plain folks tired of criminals being given a free ride. Whatever they are, yalls little march did more to shake off malaise within the conservative constituency than any amount of direct intervention we could have ever done.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if that stunt turns out to cost the left their last, slim hope of retaking the House.

Typical.... simple reality of the democratic party in the US is that they'd rather go down in defeat than respect the social values of middle America.
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Moonbats vs Wingpawns

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:11:07

OKAY, so the two right-wingers on this forum can't find any wingnut bloggers who have discussed peak oil intelligently.

Here is a short list from the progressive side:
http://seeingtheforest.com -- seeing the forest
http://www.correntewire.com/ -- corrente
http://washingtonmonthly.com/ -- political animal
http://www.bopnews.com/ -- blogging of the president
http://culturelifenewsii.blogspot.com/ -- culture of life
http://ezraklein.typepad.com/ -- ezra klein
http://atrios.blogspot.com/ -- atrios
http://billmon.org/ -- billmon
http://agonist.org/ -- agonist
http://dailykos.com/ -- daily kos

and everyone on Air America Radio http://airamericaradio/

The key thing is that these people understand the science, politics, and implications of peak oil. They are all "doomers" by default in the sense that they don't pretend that we have a veritable cornucopia of oil on the horizon.

Find one right-wing blogger that takes a principled stand either way. I will cede you the lunatic freepers at freerepublic.com, just because that place is a free-for-all.

It comes down to Doombats vs Wingpawns

Doombats win the media war by a long shot.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:17:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')I don't know whether they're wingnuts or racists, or just plain folks tired of criminals being given a free ride. Whatever they are, yalls little march did more to shake off malaise within the conservative constituency than any amount of direct intervention we could have ever done.


Yes, like rats rousted from their nests. The best antitode to racism is exposure. We are now seeing the real racists coming to the forefront.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 03:27:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', '
')Yes, like rats rousted from their nests. The best antitode to racism is exposure. We are now seeing the real racists coming to the forefront.


See, here's the rub. It used to be that you could shame people into voting for your side by calling them racists; all it does now is make them mad and want to throw you guys out of the last few positions of power that you still hold in middle America. One might think the left could learn, but instead, the left has become willfully ignorant, running with blinders on, and wishing the world would go back to the way it was in the seventies.

You folks really are spoiling my entertainment; its not a sport if its not competitive, and if you can't even pull yourselves together when served up a perfect opportunity, I'm not sure what to think. Maybe the democrats should just disband and let someone competent start a new party....
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby Jack » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 04:11:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', 'U')nfortunately, it doesn't work that way with the rest of the world. I presume that many of the people of the Middle East you would consider ill-educated, but try getting dropped in the middle of one of those countries and try to survive based on your intellectualized negotiating skills. You would be lucky to escape with your shorts intact. They have thousands of years of a head start on understanding how to separate said shorts from said easy mark. Alas, that is the global economy that we now face.


So they have created a profoundly poor culture where they pick each other's pockets. That's part of the reason I've nominated them for a place of honor in the upcoming population pruning.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 07:59:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('WebHubbleTelescope', '
')Yes, like rats rousted from their nests. The best antitode to racism is exposure. We are now seeing the real racists coming to the forefront.


You folks really are spoiling my entertainment; its not a sport if its not competitive, and if you can't even pull yourselves together when served up a perfect opportunity, I'm not sure what to think. Maybe the democrats should just disband and let someone competent start a new party....


When did I ever even mention Democrats as the way? Just because I talk about left-wing and progressive politics in a good light you think I advocate the Democratic party? By and large, the Democrats currently elected to national office are a rather spineless bunch. On the good side they lack the criminal behavior that the Rethugs have a penchant for. [sub]rwwff = right wing wacko fundamentalist fool?[/sub]
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby WebHubbleTelescope » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 08:02:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '
')So they have created a profoundly poor culture where they pick each other's pockets. That's part of the reason I've nominated them for a place of honor in the upcoming population pruning.


A perfect example of why the right wing pundits won't ever talk about oil depletion issues with any clarity. All this other crap will start to leak out of their mouth.
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Re: Cornucopians vs Doomers

Unread postby Pops » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 12:49:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', ' ')I'm not hoping to find an agreement or a common ground, but to understand why the communication between both parties is so difficult and unproductive and how to resolve it.


Gettin' any understanding yet Smiley?

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