[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', ' ')But you go on to say that any "green" job requires energy to create. I have to disagree with you there...
If we shift from, say, industrial ag based labor to manual labor such as organic farming, isn't there the potential to create a whole new class of jobs requiring a much less intensive degree of energy consumption?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', ' ')For example- at some point it will become cheaper for 10 men to dig a ditch with shovels then to use a diesel consuming tractor with one high paid tractor driver. I'm not saying this is a great thing- it simply means you will replace industrial jobs with low paying serf labor that will barely allow people to feed themselves. But...a job will be a job in the future...

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', ' ')But the numbers...our numbers...have to go down...a lot...

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'I') guess my point, if I had one, was that it is not the numbers that survive that will be crucial (beyond a certain minimum). The important thing to me is what (if any) memes or mindsets will survive. If any remnant thinks, "Well, we kinda blew it, but only because we didn't work hard enough to totally dominate the planet and every last bit of life on it!" It that is the attitude that survives, I'm not sure that survival is a good thing.
As to serfs, most of us are already debt serfs, many working two mind-deadening jobs just to keep up with payments. Slavery was mostly restricted to Blacks in the US. That turned into its slight variant, sharecropping, and was extended to "white trash." Debt servitude extends well into the middle class of all races, an we are seeing it's crushing effects on Americans as the housing and debt crisis unfold. What we slide into next will merely be an extention of where we have already been going for a long, long time. (And don't get me started on the world-record numbers per capita we have behind bars--talk about modern servitude!) And of course plain ol' fashioned slavery has had a huge resurgence in the last few decades.

[Alcassin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'I') have noticed that the rich people around here are getting bigger and bigger pickup trucks, while us middle class and poor are having a hard time keeping our small cars running.

[SoylentGreen]

the Oil supply problem in the 70's was the USA passing peak oil as a Country. Now its the whole world.

[Revi]

We're in real trouble here in Maine already. We just had our peak oil group meeting today. We talked about heating oil and how unaffordable it's getting. Three of the people at the meeting are talking about moving out of the state next winter. They kept their thermostats at 55 and froze last winter. People can't afford to live here any more. This winter the price of a gallon of oil looks like it will be twice what it was last winter.

The Governor is concerned, but I don't know how much he can do. He talked about getting off of oil. He said the only oil he wants to use is olive oil. He's pushing for alternatives. Solar, tidal, biomass and wind all work in Maine. Maybe they will help ameliorate the downward slide. Maybe.

[ccpo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('misterno', 'I')n free markets there is no shortage of any kind on any item because we have exchanges.
Whenever there is an item be it oil or iron ore or orange juice or whatever is short on supply, price goes up and demand goes down and the equilibrium is reached.
In the case of oil the the demand for oil in the world is not down so price keeps going up till it hits the equilibrium.
In short, there can never be shortages in free markets. Except temporary situations like war, hurricane etc