[wisconsin_cur]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'I')n general, I perceive compassion as imposing restrictions upon one's actions. Thus, certain methods and practices might be foreclosed to someone who exhibited compassion, as opposed to someone who did not.
For the purpose of discussion, if you don't object, let's not focus on the Roma or other group. Let's just use some hypothetical group of "others".
So - first point. Are you sure compassion doesn't have a cost, in terms of constraint of actions?
Second point. Is the underlying reason for compassion some set of religious beliefs and standards?

[Jack]

Nice post!

OK, you say that you can still "feel compassion", and that you can "weep".

From the perspective of feeling compassion...

What does this mean? Suppose we have two individuals. Each does something remarkably evil. One feels compassion for the victims, one does not. How is this difference discerned by a neutral observer?

From the perspective of weeping...

That means emotional involvement. Those emotions will restrict your actions. You will hesitate. It will slow you - perhaps only for 1/10th of a second, but it will slow you. That can be lethal.

That's a high price.

And referring to the first case, what good does weeping do for the victims?

Short form - to what purpose do we feel this compassion you mention? What's in it for the person feeling it?

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', ' ')What's in it for the person feeling it?

[wisconsin_cur]

Weeping, if I may use it as shorthand, is the cost of being a) human and b) connected with the world as it truly is (as opposed to a construct that we create to make ourselves feel better or, in other words, to avoid the cost of being human).

It could get you killed. It could cause you to hesitate but, I would say, that you have died for a good cause, you have died in the process of truly experiencing the world as it is. One has not lived a lie.

I would add we do lots of things that can get us killed. I drive to get to work to get money to buy marsh dirt to build a garden. Driving is the most dangerous thing I do, I make the trade off because I cannot yet work from home and get the financial return I need to keep the home.

Whatever future you see approaching us, however, you plan to confront it, you will do things that might get you killed. Compassion is no different. The questions are, how does one weigh the risk and is it worth the trade off?

I do not think that the risk is anymore higher than driving to work. Even though I may not know how close I come to buying it as a dozing trucker passes me at 75, so I may not know how close I come to buying it because I showed compassion. If depletion were not an issue, I would probably drive to work my whole working career, assuming that risk for 40 + years. I think one should take their chances with compassion.

Will that change in the future? The risk will go up but risk can be mitigated without surrendering compassion. Risk will go up but it need not become unmanageable. We make choices about where to live, some places, I admit, it would be more dangerous to be compassionate than others. Move to someplace else.

Those who look like victims are more likely to be victims. One need not look like a victim to be compassionate. Secure the house, set up really big steel traps lock things up, get a mean looking dog, those bent on making someone a victim will probably go somewhere else. To go back to the driving comparison; I drive a certain way to lower my risk of being a road kill, but I still drive. You can live in such a way as to reduce your risk at being a victim but retain compassion.

[Heineken]

For every scenario in which compassion (or other acts of kindness) can be posited as somehow limiting or threatening to oneself, I can envision a scenario in which such positive expressions of our humanity would have the opposite effect.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'O')h Lord, not this subject again.
(Jack, I'm sure you remember our little argument of long ago, the one that led to your branding as a sociopath. Sure enough, you have homed in to Cur's post with alacrity.)

[Jack]

Interesting points, Wisconsin. I perceive the risk-reward ratio differently. But you present your thoughts very well.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'O')h Lord, not this subject again.
(Jack, I'm sure you remember our little argument of long ago, the one that led to your branding as a sociopath. Sure enough, you have homed in to Cur's post with alacrity.)

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'H')ow does it jibe with your earlier-stated enjoyment of croissants et coffee et the gym?

[BigTex]

Jack, I mentioned Harry Browne to you a while back and I don't know if you have had an opportunity to read any of his stuff, but on his website there is a 20 hour course he gave back in 1967 called "Rule Your World." A recording of it was found after his death and his wife thought it was so good she made it available for sale.

This course sits in the same space as other motivational/inspirational seminars of that era, but this course was far from that. This course was about coming to terms with the fact that your own happiness is the only thing that matters and coming to an intellectual understanding of this fundamental fact in every area of life is the key to a state of mental well being at all times.

The course can be downloaded for $99, which is what I did, and I thought it was worth every penny. It was very provocative, even if I didn't agree with all of his analysis. Above all, it came from an analytical and intellectual perspective when discussing emotions, and treated them in sort of the same way you do--like a person walking around a foreign object trying to identify it by occasionally poking it was a stick or giving it a little kick, but always keeping a safe distance.

There is a place for compassion in Harry Browne's world, it just has to be for the purpose of bringing him the most happiness.

After downloading it I transferred it all to 20 discs and have listened to some of them several times. For example, he spends most of one hour explaining how all religion is necessarily myth and fantasy. He just calmly explains to the audience how there is no God, and how coming to this realization as early as possible will allow you to get on with the business of making yourself happy. Pretty wild stuff.

But I think you might like it.

***

To the OP regarding compassion, it's different when you have a family, I think. You have compassion for your children and spouse for reasons that are too numerous to discuss here, but this compassion for close loved ones can be transferred to others without there necessarily being a rationale that you could articulate. Sometimes you just do things for others and you're not quite sure why.

In reading Cormac McCarthy's "The Road" I think one sees a good example of what doomer compassion might look like. The hero is utterly compassionate toward all of the poor souls in the ruined world he finds himself in, but that doesn't keep him from killing them when necessary. I recommend that one to anyone who hasn't read it; it provides a good illustration of what compassion in a time of doom might look like.

[Don35]

I think there might be some misunderstanding about the Buddhist practice so here is my understanding of it. Jack has some the points figured out. Cool! The Buddha found that desires could never be satisfied and completely ended and that no external object could bring lasting happiness. The way he found to peace and happiness was a middle path. Observation. One of the purposes of the practice of meditation is to develop stillness and develop the skill to observe emotions w/o letting them control you. Then from that deep stillness (Jack might like this part) you are able to consciously choose better actions. The Buddha found emotions are part of being human and could not be eliminated. In India at the time of his life some were trying that and failed. When trying not to feel or suppress them, emotions will come out sideways or unconsciously in ways that aren’t good for us or those around us: counterproductive in Jack’s words. When you are connected to stillness thoughts and emotions fly through like the wind. It’s amazing how fickle our thoughts and emotions can be!

The Buddha taught that we need both compassion and wisdom. Wisdom to make good choices and compassion to deal w/ our fellow man. He that taught one w/o the other was not fruitful. I think compassion is necessary especially in groups. How else can humans get along with each other? We humans tend to dump all our baggage on each other because we don’t know any better. We don’t know any other way. We are all suffering. Knowing that all of us suffer helps me have more compassion and understanding and sometimes lets me react better in difficult situations. I’m still working on all this!

The Buddha and Buddhism go much deeper than that, but for this discussion that’s enough. That’s my understanding of Buddhism and what I’ve found in my own practice, but I am NOT a expert at all.

Interesting topic guys. Thanks!

[Kingcoal]

Compassion is human investment. I believe that compassion is social biological, arising from the fact that being completely self motivated without concern for others will oftentimes lead to being "ganged up on." That is the ultimate fear of every despot and rightly so. Being compassionate is like an emotional currency; those on the receiving end may return the favor if the tables turn. Of course they may not, but humans have an innate sense of justice which is seen in animal behavior also. When a despot finds himself on trial, his acts of compassion will be considered and his lack thereof will also weigh in.

In other words, being compassionate is in your own self interest ultimately. Compassion buys political capital which may come in handy in the future. Of course it may not, but, like most insurance policies, it's a good idea.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'H')ow does it jibe with your earlier-stated enjoyment of croissants et coffee et the gym?

[threadbear]

The costs of compassion? A loving man might be hounded to death by hordes of love starved females, both pre and post peak. Sounds rough. I wouldn't recommend it.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he costs of compassion? A loving man might be hounded to death by hordes of love starved females, both pre and post peak. Sounds rough. I wouldn't recommend it.

[Ayoob]

I have a lot of compassion for my fellow man. It might not come through in my posts, but if you knew me in person, it would be different. I post a lot of crap because this is relatively anonymous and it helps me get things off my chest.

But I'm not kidding about this. If you decide that being compassionate means importing criminals into my neighborhood and throwing me and my family under the bus, I have a problem with that.

If you want to be Christ-like and live with the lepers and thieves, YOU move in with THEM. Don't make ME live among them against my will.

If I live in one more neighborhood that turns to shit because somebody wanted to feel good and try to change the poor underclass, I'm going to freak out for real. I want to live in a good neighborhood with low crime, an excellent educational system, clean water, all of it. I can afford it, I'm going there, it is my mission in life. I'm a highly educated and mostly law-abiding type and I am massively tired of dirtbags and I don't want to be fucked with anymore.

My next home is my last one. No dirtbags. For their own good, keep them away from me.

Cheap labor is not a good enough excuse. Trying to help out is not a good enough excuse. Sharing my good neighborhood to try to raise people up is not fucking good enough. Leave me alone. I don't want section 8 housing, cheap labor, I am begging for the opportunity to pay double for lettuce if it means my shit isn't going to get stolen if I leave it outside for ten minutes.

I moved out of the hood a couple years ago, and I've actually simmered down a lot. I was a really really angry guy a couple years ago, now I'm down to just really angry. I do not want the hood anywhere near me. No dirtbags.

Have all the compassion you want, bud. Please do. But compassion is not the same thing as dragging my neighborhood down.

Why is compassion only for the dirtbags?

[wisconsin_cur]

Compassion is for everyone who suffers.

Including Ayoob, including those who see their neighborhoods change, including those who are victims of crime.

Compassion sees no color, no economic status, no flag, it just sees the suffering but it sees everyone's suffering.

Even the suffering of the "dirtbag."

[Ayoob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wisconsin_cur', 'C')ompassion is for everyone who suffers.
Including Ayoob, including those who see their neighborhoods change, including those who are victims of crime.
Compassion sees no color, no economic status, no flag, it just sees the suffering but it sees everyone's suffering.
Even the suffering of the "dirtbag."

[wisconsin_cur]

I think you have me confused with someone else.

If you were to read my posts you would find no policy recommendations nor do I pass judgment on those proposed by others. I am doing nothing. I don't support a party. I only vote in local elections... and i don't think we live in the same time zone let alone congressional district.

I can be accused of hypocrisy because I am not doing or proposing anything beyond feeling. I understand that. I have a philosophical answer to that which may or may not be convincing. Either way it is irrelavent.

I cannot be accused of screwing up your world. I don't even know where you live.

If I am to be attacked lets at least make it for the right thing.

Hypocrite? maybe.

The cause of all your problems? no.

So if we could get back to the issue at hand...

Here, have a t-shirt.

[Ayoob]

No, I know you. I know you very well. Good luck peddling your bullshit to the other softies. You're not the cause of all my troubles, I have enough to untangle for several lifetimes, and I wish to be left alone to do so. There is no doubt I suffer from PTSD from matters entirely unrelated to peak oil. I have problems. Don't make them worse.

Do not import more problems into my world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAvmLDkA ... re=related

I very much hope we understand one another. I will not address this issue again.

And, because you're such a pussy, you didn't even touch upon the matter of going where you're needed, or why you seek to upset my hopefully tranquil life. I really don't want to fight for it, but I will if you force me to.

Just to finish this off I'm going to tell you a story about an interaction I had with a friend of mine about two years ago. He found out that I carry a gun with me every time I walk out my front door, and that I have several around my house. He thought he was going to play with me a little by telling me a story about how he messed with a guy who wore a shirt proclaiming his allegiance to a certain soccer team, while my friend was a fan of a different team.

He approached the guy with the other jersey and made some kind of aggressive comment. The other guy, wishing to be left alone, said he didn't want any trouble. My friend advanced on him, and the other guy retreated. He made it abundantly clear that he was moving on and was not going to engage. My friend ignored this stance and approached. The other guy turned to run. My friend ran after him.

At this point in the story I told him that if I was the other guy, I would have turned and fired. If I make it clear that I don't want to fight and move on, and I am pursued against my wishes, that I will become deadly in a moment. There is no brandishing, there is no threatening. All there is at that point is force.

Does that make sense to you? I am rapidly moving away from dirtbags. I want to be left alone. Do not follow me. Do not import more dirtbags. Do not cause me trouble. Have compassion all you want, but your feelings do not make me a victim.

My friend had a very hard time accepting that this is my position and I am unmoveable on it. He thinks fistfighting is fun and recreational. It is not. I am not in the mood to tolerate his bullshit, and I'm not in the mood to tolerate yours. Throwing your countryman under the bus is also know as being a traitor, and we all know what happens to them.

It's time to grow up, son. You need to understand that people want to be left alone to pursue their happiness on their own. Your right to swing your fist stops at my nose. Capische?