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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 21:23:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')hy on earth is medicaid and medicare so screwed up?


The same reason that US soldiers are getting killed in Iraq escorting convoys of empty Haliburton trucks all over the place. The same reason that it took FEMA a week to figure out there was an emergency in New Orleans, when every person in the country not employed by the government knew it was going to happen two days beforehand.

Nepotism, corruption, ineptitude, self-serving bureaucracy. It's the end result forcing 300,000,000 people under a single government which is then selected based on popularity. Nobody cares if anything gets done, as long as they look good for the TV cameras. They can pretend that they're providing healthcare coverage for poor people. They're not. A few doctors are taking care of the poor people out of the goodness of their own hearts, but the congressmen can pretend they are on Meet the Press and that's all that really matters.


Smallpoxgirl... you're a Libertarian, aren't you?
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 21:27:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')hy on earth is medicaid and medicare so screwed up?


Because medicaid and medicare are government health care.

Medicare and medicaid are good examples of what all US health will be like if the dems get their way and all US health care is taken over by the government. :)
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby PrairieMule » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 21:31:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')hy on earth is medicaid and medicare so screwed up?


The same reason that US soldiers are getting killed in Iraq escorting convoys of empty Haliburton trucks all over the place. The same reason that it took FEMA a week to figure out there was an emergency in New Orleans, when every person in the country not employed by the government knew it was going to happen two days beforehand.

Nepotism, corruption, ineptitude, self-serving bureaucracy. It's the end result forcing 300,000,000 people under a single government which is then selected based on popularity. Nobody cares if anything gets done, as long as they look good for the TV cameras. They can pretend that they're providing healthcare coverage for poor people. They're not. A few doctors are taking care of the poor people out of the goodness of their own hearts, but the congressmen can pretend they are on Meet the Press and that's all that really matters.


That was a fine post SPG.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 00:11:51

The conspiracy bit assumes that health insurance companies acted solely out of their own rational self interest with no regard to externalities.

Obviously they don't do this.

The legal system (as well as basic morality) prevents them from boosting business by making people sick.

I'm using the extreme example of an evil monopoly to show that the health care system is in fact NOT an evil monopoly.

Instead it's a poorly matched bureaucracy of inefficient public and private health care providers that have no central focus.

Making money shouldn't be the focus of health care. A healthy society is more important than a rich health care industry.

At the same time, the profit motive should not be removed from the system or else we create shortages and stagnation.

It's a very tricky system that can't be summed up in one post.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Kaj » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 00:59:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')hy on earth is medicaid and medicare so screwed up?


Because medicaid and medicare are government health care.

Medicare and medicaid are good examples of what all US health will be like if the dems get their way and all US health care is taken over by the government. :)


8O
Hang on, I thought you were an Obama supporter?
I take it he isn't advocating healthcare then?
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 02:39:44

Tyler-- For God's sakes, health care providers don't have to make people sick, and that is hardly a good argument that they are reasonable and not completely self interested. . Human beings have the worst physiology in the animal kingdom. Bipedalism destroys our backs, we don't have fur to protect our skin, we are prone to all sorts of weird digestive problems, through our unique evolutionary process. And that
's not even accounting for all the horrid lifestyle problems piled on top of it, as well as having large brains that make us neurotic. We don't need anyone making us sick. God how I wish I was a cat. Now there is a physiologically perfect animal.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 04:01:14

Alright.

I was wondering if anyone else bought into the "they don't sell cures, they sell treatments" argument.

I'm partially drawn into the concept. It is intuitive.

If someone discovered an inexpensive cure for something, the business that exists to treat it would disappear. Mega Health Inc couldn't allow that so they manipulate the FDA into preventing alternative medicine from coming into the marketplace.

Moreover, Mega Health Inc creates artificial diseases (erectile dysfunction, restless leg syndrome) or takes a disease and suddenly starts diagnosing everyone with it (autism, bipolar disorder, ADD). Now a whole new market springs up to treat all of the healthy people who believe they are sick.

Another conspiracy angle, I suppose, but I'm just fishing around right now to test the various theories.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 09:36:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'T')he conspiracy bit assumes that health insurance companies acted solely out of their own rational self interest with no regard to externalities.

Obviously they don't do this.

The legal system (as well as basic morality) prevents them from boosting business by making people sick.

I'm using the extreme example of an evil monopoly to show that the health care system is in fact NOT an evil monopoly.

Instead it's a poorly matched bureaucracy of inefficient public and private health care providers that have no central focus.

Making money shouldn't be the focus of health care. A healthy society is more important than a rich health care industry.

At the same time, the profit motive should not be removed from the system or else we create shortages and stagnation.

It's a very tricky system that can't be summed up in one post.


Thank you for that clarification, in that, I agree. The option is perhaps simple. Only non-profit organizations can own clinics and hospitals. There would have to be more to this such as tort reform on medical malpractice and a few other issues to work through, but it is possible to reign in the "rampant capitalist" component.

Hospitals began their big conversion from non-profit when non-profit hospitals began having financial troubles back in the 80s. I was not at all tuned into the subject and at that time and can not tell you what problems they faced.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 09:41:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'A')lright.

I was wondering if anyone else bought into the "they don't sell cures, they sell treatments" argument.

I'm partially drawn into the concept. It is intuitive.

If someone discovered an inexpensive cure for something, the business that exists to treat it would disappear. Mega Health Inc couldn't allow that so they manipulate the FDA into preventing alternative medicine from coming into the marketplace.

Moreover, Mega Health Inc creates artificial diseases (erectile dysfunction, restless leg syndrome) or takes a disease and suddenly starts diagnosing everyone with it (autism, bipolar disorder, ADD). Now a whole new market springs up to treat all of the healthy people who believe they are sick.

Another conspiracy angle, I suppose, but I'm just fishing around right now to test the various theories.


I have days like that. Here's the problem with the cure vs treatment theory. Drug makers are all really large and powerful so none of them have a great advantage over the other. Further, lets say someone comes up with a cure for AIDS. They can go to Europe or another country and prove it works in a way that the FDA would be powerless to reject it.

The only way that would work is if the maker of the AIDS treatment ALSO made the cure. Then they can just bury it. Again, very cynical and very possible in that scenario.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 10:48:22

While the conversation is interesting thus far, we have lost the focus and I intend on correcting that. I do not think it reasonable to argue over the #1 ranking in cost. It's true, however we can discuss the reasons why it's true.

The #37 ranking is the real point of contention. Taking the information on how the ranking was determined from this link we will have plenty to discuss for the next few days.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The World Health Organization (WHO) released a groundbreaking report in 2000, with data on health systems of 191 member countries. In this analysis, WHO developed three primary goals for what a good health system should do:

1) good health: "making the health status of the entire population as good as possible" across the whole life cycle,

2) responsiveness: responding to people's expectations of respectful treatment and client orientation by health care providers, and

3) fairness in financing: ensuring financial protection for everyone, with costs distributed according to one's ability to pay.

The WHO study also distinguished between the overall "goodness" of health care systems ("the best attainable average level") and fairness ("the smallest feasible differences among individuals and groups"). A health system which is both good and fair would thus ideally have:

1) overall good health (e.g., low infant mortality rates and high disability-adjusted life expectancy);

2) a fair distribution of good health (e.g., low infant mortality and long life expectancy evenly distributed across population groups);

3) a high level of overall responsiveness;

4) a fair distribution of responsiveness across population groups; and

5) a fair distribution of financing health care (whether the burden of health care costs is fairly distributed, based on ability to pay, so that everyone is equally protected from the financial risks of illness).



It's a protected document, but I think I typed it in verbatim, however I did change the format a little.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Magus » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 10:48:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '
')
The only way that would work is if the maker of the AIDS treatment ALSO made the cure. Then they can just bury it. Again, very cynical and very possible in that scenario.


How does one go about preventing a cure from being publicized? There's nothing to stop someone else from discovering that very same cure...or am I missing something unsaid here?

[quote=smallpoxgirl]
It is absolutely better. Canadians pay about 2/3 as much per tax payer for universal coverage as we do for Medicare and Medicaid. They also live two years longer than us on average.

But they're Canadians. We're not. Just because it works in Canada doesn't mean it would work here.[/quote]

And why, exactly, is that? Because Americans are just to damn stupid to handle a universal health care system? That is the gist that I'm getting from some of the posts in this thread. Basically, government BAD! Social health care program BAD! Privatization GOOD!

So I guess you enjoy paying up the ass for your health, then?

Seriously, why all this hostility towards government social programs? I just don't understand the reasoning behind this train of thought. There's just some essential services that just shouldn't be left to the devises of private individuals or corporations!
Do we contract out fire fighters and law enforcement? NO, last time I checked, they were doing just fine under local governments.

Remember, the Declaration of Independence lists life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as the unalienable rights of humanity. The government is responsible for protecting the greater well-being of ALL citizens, within reason, rich or poor. That is why we have a fucking government in the first place, is it not?

Are some of you also opposed to the government monopoly on postal service? Maybe we should privatize our military as well. Oh, wait, were already doing that. It's called Blackwater. Whoops, good job on that one.

Sorry if I come off a little cranky here, but I'm staying up later to write this than is probably good for me...But, I strongly believe that this notion that the institutions of government are somehow the root of all our problems today. Sorry, but that honor falls to human nature and greed (an overabundance of it). Given that capitalism an the private health care industry appear to almost be the avatara of greed incarnate (in my opinion) giving those same corporations yet more control is not a solution, at all.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Nepotism, corruption, ineptitude, self-serving bureaucracy. It's the end result forcing 300,000,000 people under a single government which is then selected based on popularity. Nobody cares if anything gets done, as long as they look good for the TV cameras. They can pretend that they're providing healthcare coverage for poor people. They're not. A few doctors are taking care of the poor people out of the goodness of their own hearts, but the congressmen can pretend they are on Meet the Press and that's all that really matters.


Forced, you say? Last time I checked, we were still free to leave this country. Otherwise, if you don't like the conditions on the ground, then it is your responsibility to do something about it, whether that entail simply voting the parasites out, rioting, or (if the situation is truly as bad as you seem to think it is with corruption, have a revolution.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Thank you for that clarification, in that, I agree. The option is perhaps simple. Only non-profit organizations can own clinics and hospitals. There would have to be more to this such as tort reform on medical malpractice and a few other issues to work through, but it is possible to reign in the "rampant capitalist" component.

Hospitals began their big conversion from non-profit when non-profit hospitals began having financial troubles back in the 80s. I was not at all tuned into the subject and at that time and can not tell you what problems they faced.


There is already a large, non-profit organization that can and truly should take up the burden of national health care. It's called...the government! (Wow, didn't see that one coming!)

Oh noes! Socialism!!!

Socialisim!!!

Now, whether the government is currently able to take up that mission at the present time...is another argument entirely.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 11:38:02

Magus, I do not appreciate a YouTube stuck into a post that automatically plays. It's just plain rude. Now to your post.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o I guess you enjoy paying up the ass for your health, then?


No, I don't! That's why I want the federal government out of the health care system. They should be doing oversight, not control.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')eriously, why all this hostility towards government social programs? I just don't understand the reasoning behind this train of thought.


Do you live in the US? Do you pay taxes? Do you remember this little issue? Do you understand what George Bush is doing to America? Do you understand most presidents, since at least Lincoln, have done something to limit our freedoms? 5+ trillion dollars and the war on poverty has made no headway. Thousands of people locked up in the War on Drugs and the problem is as bad as ever. Does any of this give you an understanding of why many of us distrust the motives and abilities of government?


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here's just some essential services that just shouldn't be left to the devises of private individuals or corporations!


Sure, but we apparently diverge on what those things are. The constitution lists 18 different jobs for the feds. Each state has it's list and the locality is whatever the people want as long as it doesn't go against the state and fed.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o we contract out fire fighters and law enforcement? NO, last time I checked, they were doing just fine under local governments.


Apples and oranges. We're discussing the federal government and this is all local government services (and they work just fine for the most part). Shall I start posting the abuses of the federal government's DHS, DEA, BTAF, FBI, and others? I don't have problems with services provided by the local government as they are much closer to the voters and are by definition more responsive the the needs of the people.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')emember, the Declaration of Independence lists life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness as the unalienable rights of humanity.

Yeah, and a lot of really other cool stuff... in fact I carry a copy with me wherever I go.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he government is responsible for protecting the greater well-being of ALL citizens, within reason, rich or poor. That is why we have a fucking government in the first place, is it not?

If you mean cradle to grave protections, then we might as well stop here because I see the definition of those protections as making sure nobody is violating my rights (shooting at me, defrauding, stealing etc). It does not mean that it wipes my nose every time I have a sniffle. It does mean that it has an important oversight role to play. Unfortunately, over the past few presidents, they have failed miserably in that regard, instead passing new unneeded laws and mandates and generally making a mess of foreign policy and the world as a whole.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re some of you also opposed to the government monopoly on postal service?

UPS and FedEx work great! I'll bet they both could deliver mail as well as the post office at a similar or lower price!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Maybe we should privatize our military as well.

Actually, unlike the post office, this is a constitutionally mandated job of the federal government and they do a really good job at it. The US military is the best in the world at killing people and breaking things... not so much as a police force.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')h, wait, were already doing that. It's called Blackwater. Whoops, good job on that one.

Thanks for making my point on the above. The current administration is screwing us and everything up big time. This whole mess should land a lot of people in the Hague.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') strongly believe that this notion that the institutions of government are somehow the root of all our problems today. Sorry, but that honor falls to human nature and greed (an overabundance of it).

Again, think about what you just said!

"that honor falls to human nature and greed (an overabundance of it)" --- what makes you say that the government isn't overrun with this? The evidence is there every day and the sheeple just let it pass!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')iven that capitalism an the private health care industry appear to almost be the avatara of greed incarnate (in my opinion) giving those same corporations yet more control is not a solution, at all.

More? I want less through competition and choice! I want them to have to earn my trust and business! I want them to do what they can to make me happy that I let them part me from my money! I sure as frack do not want to let any one entity, especially government, control my health care decisions!

You argue against but you give all the evidence in the world for what I say.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')epotism, corruption, ineptitude, self-serving bureaucracy. It's the end result forcing 300,000,000 people under a single government which is then selected based on popularity. Nobody cares if anything gets done, as long as they look good for the TV cameras. They can pretend that they're providing healthcare coverage for poor people. They're not. A few doctors are taking care of the poor people out of the goodness of their own hearts, but the congressmen can pretend they are on Meet the Press and that's all that really matters.

Forced, you say? Last time I checked, we were still free to leave this country.

This is a choice? I'm glad you think you have that choice.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')therwise, if you don't like the conditions on the ground, then it is your responsibility to do something about it, whether that entail simply voting the parasites out, rioting, or (if the situation is truly as bad as you seem to think it is with corruption, have a revolution.

While the voting thing is exactly the proper response which less than half of the voters actually care to do, the rioting and revolution are messy, destructive things that usually lead to totalitarianism, not freedom. Thanks, I'll stick to activism and voting.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here is already a large, non-profit organization that can and truly should take up the burden of national health care. It's called...the government! (Wow, didn't see that one coming!)

Oh noes! Socialism!!!

Actually that remark was the most predictable.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ow, whether the government is currently able to take up that mission at the present time...is another argument entirely.

Again, you make my point! I love it! The federal government has never been capable of doing this and will never be capable under our current set of rules and rulers in DC. Don't you see? The people have let Washington screw them over and we're being told that the reason they haven't solved the problem is because they haven't spent enough money, yet!
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 11:56:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '3')) fairness in financing: ensuring financial protection for everyone, with costs distributed according to one's ability to pay.


I love this one... every time you want to make the US look bad at something, just make sure your criteria includes some socialist viewpoint for fairness.

Try this on most kids. You have 5 cookies and I have 3, therefore you must give me 1.

Try this on most adults. You get paid more than I do, so therefore you must be charged more for your food and utilities.

Try this on any government. That millionaire paid only 10% of his income in taxes, therefore I will not pay the 30% (or 40%, or 60%, depends on where you live) you demand, but only 10%.

Try this in treaty talks. You have 100 nuclear war heads and I have 30,000... I propose we both decrease our arsenal by 99 war heads.

Is it fair to charge a stock broker $100 for a gallon of gas because he can afford it? No.

Is it fair to charge a doctor $20 for a diet soda because he can afford it? No.

Is it fair to charge a lawyer $1,000 for a $10 taxi fair because he can afford it... I'll get back to you on that :lol:

My point is that according to the WHOever criteria, I'm surprised we got as high as we did and that it's nothing but propaganda.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Magus » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 18:38:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'M')agus, I do not appreciate a YouTube stuck into a post that automatically plays. It's just plain rude. Now to your post.

:roll: Changed it into a link if it makes you feel any better.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o, I don't! That's why I want the federal government out of the health care system. They should be doing oversight, not control.


Well, then. Why?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o you live in the US? Do you pay taxes? Do you remember this little issue? Do you understand what George Bush is doing to America? Do you understand most presidents, since at least Lincoln, have done something to limit our freedoms? 5+ trillion dollars and the war on poverty has made no headway. Thousands of people locked up in the War on Drugs and the problem is as bad as ever. Does any of this give you an understanding of why many of us distrust the motives and abilities of government?


Yes, I live in the US. I also pay taxes, and I'm quite well aware of how woefully in debt our nation is. That has absolutely nothing to do with our social programs, however. Those things you mentioned our merely ill conceived ventures by our leaders, ventures which the American people very well have the means to stop, if they only desired to do so.

The War on Drugs is the most misguided program I have ever seen. All that happens is the black market price of drugs are pushed up, while shadowy groups such as the CIA actually profit this so called "war." Same deal with the War on Terror. I mean, can you actually declare war on an idea? Or a type of behavior? No.

I understand your reasoning behind distrusting the government we have now. I believe that it has indeed been usurped by corporations and bureaucratic leeches to society. I fully agree with you on that!

But there is a good purpose for government having control over social welfare programs! Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Sure, the government needs reform. Jefferson, I believe, even went so far as to say that as a people we need a revolution every so often, to purge the crap out of the system, I suppose you could say. Perhaps that revolution is long over due.

I'm running out of time here, but will try to respond to the rest of your post as much as possible now.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ure, but we apparently diverge on what those things are. The constitution lists 18 different jobs for the feds. Each state has it's list and the locality is whatever the people want as long as it doesn't go against the state and fed.


We apparently do diverge on this.

There is nothing in the constitution that says the government CAN"T handle something like health care, you know. I seriously doubt it was a great consideration at the time of the revolution.

My question to you is, why do you think privatization of health care would be any better (if not worse), then?

Sorry, but I have to go now. I'll be back later. Be well.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 20:56:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Magus', '
')Yes, I live in the US. I also pay taxes, and I'm quite well aware of how woefully in debt our nation is. That has absolutely nothing to do with our social programs, however.


Bzzzzzzt!

About 40% of the US budget is now going to transfer payments, social programs etc.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Tue 22 Apr 2008, 21:01:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Magus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'M')agus, I do not appreciate a YouTube stuck into a post that automatically plays. It's just plain rude. Now to your post.

:roll: Changed it into a link if it makes you feel any better.


Thanks, that IS much better.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')y question to you is, why do you think privatization of health care would be any better (if not worse), then?


Privatization? That sounds like it has always been a government program. Medicare was put into law in 1965 and started in 1966. Private health insurance in one form or another has been around a bit longer.

I prefer to ask "Why would it be better to get government completely out of health care?"

First, I concede it may not be better to get the government 100% out of health care, though I tend to believe it is better. The reason for my hesitation has to do with mental institutions, the VA and a few other possible operations that are best paid for "by the whole country".

Now, in every business ever conceived, competition has always provided more for less. The telephone company may not be the super friendly entity it was back in the 60's but you get so much more for the exact same price.

The airline industry may not be as friendly as the 1970's version, but millions can afford to fly across the country and first class is still a pleasure.

I don't give a rats pa-toot if the health insurance company agent smiles at me or the company gives millions away to some pet community project (in fact, I wish they wouldn't). What I want them to do is provide me with the coverage I want at a price that makes sense. Competition will provide that if government simply gets out of the control and paymaster part of the industry and just sets up common sense rules (damn, I'm doomed, aren't I?) and then oversees the industry.

There will be more insurance companies that get into the health market, prices will level out or go down and people will get the coverage for which they contract. Arguments that I've seen from other posters about "if everyone gets sick" are simple nonsense since that does not happen.

Finally, if the government gets into oversight-only mode then perhaps the HMOs will come back and do what they were intended to do by doing what it takes to keep people healthy instead of react to medical problems.

Competition works every time. It has never failed unless government stepped in and did something that warped the market.

Cable was a monopoly (it technically still is) but it now has satellite and the land-line telephone companies to compete with. The cable guy now shows up on time.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Magus » Wed 23 Apr 2008, 05:11:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')
Bzzzzzzt!

About 40% of the US budget is now going to transfer payments, social programs etc.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I was on a game show! Let me try again. I'll take US Federal budget for $200, please. :roll:

And the other 60% of the budget, then? Where is all of that money going? How much needs to be cut to bring the budget back into surplus? Given the amount that needs cut, which programs should be eliminated, and why?

This seems to be an argument of national priorities, to me.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')pples and oranges. We're discussing the federal government and this is all local government services (and they work just fine for the most part). Shall I start posting the abuses of the federal government's DHS, DEA, BTAF, FBI, and others? I don't have problems with services provided by the local government as they are much closer to the voters and are by definition more responsive the the needs of the people.


OK, fine, apparently you think the federal government is incapable of doing anything right. I can respect that perspective, if not completely agree.

Would a possible solution for you be to change health care a local government service? Just curious.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')eah, and a lot of really other cool stuff... in fact I carry a copy (of the Declaration of Independence) with me wherever I go.


Seriously? That's pretty hardcore, jl261. Do you have a wallet/mini size version, or something? I don't claim to have memorized word for word the Declaration, the Constitution, or any of the other founding documents of this country (although some on this site undoubtedly have), but I do hold them in high respect.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you mean cradle to grave protections, then we might as well stop here because I see the definition of those protections as making sure nobody is violating my rights (shooting at me, defrauding, stealing etc). It does not mean that it wipes my nose every time I have a sniffle. It does mean that it has an important oversight role to play. Unfortunately, over the past few presidents, they have failed miserably in that regard, instead passing new unneeded laws and mandates and generally making a mess of foreign policy and the world as a whole.


There is certainly a question of balance between negligence and overbearing authoritarianism.

The health care industry today is certainly defrauding Americans today, though, don't you think? I mean, honestly, how much can you personally afford to pay if you become seriously ill? For certain operations these days, you could end up paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars for vital care.

On a more personal note, I just recently paid $20 dollars for tube of prescribed, topical medication with a volume of 3.5 grams. It's shorter than some of my fingers and fits into the palm of my hand. Remember, this is twenty dollars. I make ten dollars an hour. I won't even mention how much my doctor visit actually cost (which, by the way, lasted less than half an hour). What a racket.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')PS and FedEx work great! I'll bet they both could deliver mail as well as the post office at a similar or lower price!

Sorry, but last time I shipped UPS. they ended up almost destroying my computer, thus eternally earning them the moniker "UPieceofShit". :-x Seriously, when the box is marked as fragile, that's when you tell the two-hundred pound gorillas to NOT smash the box upon the concrete floor.

I've never personally found the need to even bother with FedEx, but I'm sure somebody likes them, I suppose. They're still around.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ctually, unlike the post office, this is a constitutionally mandated job of the federal government and they do a really good job at it. The US military is the best in the world at killing people and breaking things... not so much as a police force.

True. However, wasn't there some provision in the Constitution for "providing for the common welfare," though? I could be wrong here, I suppose, since I don't carry around a pocket Constitution as you seem to, but I do seem to remember that starkly in my mind.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hanks for making my point on the above. The current administration is screwing us and everything up big time. This whole mess should land a lot of people in the Hague.

I completely agree. These Blackwater hired thugs don't even coordinate operations with our military sometimes; some officers in the field have dutifully reported as much. Yet, no higher action has been taken.

But, in support of my argument here, I must remind you that Blackwater is a private company (modern mercenaries, in fact). They do not answer to the people, just as the private health care firms do not answer to the people. I don't understand why you refuse to see the obvious parallels here.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')gain, think about what you just said!

"that honor falls to human nature and greed (an overabundance of it)" --- what makes you say that the government isn't overrun with this? The evidence is there every day and the sheeple just let it pass!

My point is the problem does not lie with government control, per say. I'm saying that the problems today are systemic to our entire society today.

Notice that you blame both the government and the people, which in reality are one in the same, since is it not the people place the members of the government into office?

Governments are flawed because humanity itself is tragically flawed. That's why periodic upheavals are still necessary, to clean out the human trash, so to speak. We need a paradigm shift in human consciousness, and that's exactly what we are going to get, and soon. But then again, you already know that.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ore? I want less through competition and choice! I want them to have to earn my trust and business! I want them to do what they can to make me happy that I let them part me from my money! I sure as frack do not want to let any one entity, especially government, control my health care decisions!

You argue against but you give all the evidence in the world for what I say.

Tell me, how much choice do you really have in health care today? You can use exorbitantly expensive provider numbers 1, 2, and 3. What is the benefit you see in this? Also, do you really want put your life in the hands of somebody who is not helping you because they sincerely care whether you live or die, just how much money you happen to be able to pay? I can certainly see the need for government oversight in this matter, at the very least.

I fail to see how I particularly strengthen your argument here, as well, merely you reiterating how much you fear state control.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is a choice? I'm glad you think you have that choice.

Care to present evidence on how it is now impossible for an American to immigrate? I'm curious as to what your getting at here.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hile the voting thing is exactly the proper response which less than half of the voters actually care to do, the rioting and revolution are messy, destructive things that usually lead to totalitarianism, not freedom. Thanks, I'll stick to activism and voting.

That pocket Constitution that you hold so dear was born from the fire of revolution. You remember that, of course, but it's hard to tell from that statement you made here.

Revolution is sometimes necessary to assert the rights and freedom of a people. That is the very foundation of this country, isn't it? And yet you decry revolution as "messy, destructive things?!" Have you forgotten what this country originally stood for?

Sometimes, mere activism is simply not enough. If the situation in the US gets much worse, then it may be the only option left. Do you disagree?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ctually that remark was the most predictable.

As are yours. Yet, this debate continues.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')gain, you make my point! I love it! The federal government has never been capable of doing this and will never be capable under our current set of rules and rulers in DC. Don't you see? The people have let Washington screw them over and we're being told that the reason they haven't solved the problem is because they haven't spent enough money, yet!

See above. Also, universal health care seems to work elsewhere, so yes, it is our problem. Did I ever actually disagree with that fact? I don't think I did...I do think that we should fix this problem, however. We are talking about this to fix the problems, yes?

Or am I wasting my time.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ompetition works every time. It has never failed unless government stepped in and did something that warped the market.

Really? I guess the outsourcing of our industrial base that international corporations have taken over to China and India are absolutely no problem at all. I'm sure that the free market will just sort everything out just fine. Remember: Always the low prices!

Always! Go back to sleep.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Magus » Wed 23 Apr 2008, 05:15:50

Double post, please delete.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 23 Apr 2008, 12:46:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Magus', 'u')niversal health care seems to work elsewhere


1. Actually, there is universal health care in the US now. Most people are covered by medical insurance. Those who are indigent and are not insured can receive free medical treatment in hospitals under the 1986 Federal law, the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act. The free medical care is available to everyone, including people who aren't even US citizens. This law is well known among illegal aliens, who regularly get free medical care at hospitals in the US. Curiously, many Americans seem to be ignorant of it, and continue to claim that the US does not have universal health care.

2. There is a naive belief among Americans that "universal health care" is an unqualified success in other countries. In fact, most countries with universal health care have severe problems with keeping doctors and providing enough care. In essence, they ration health care by not providing it..... In Canada, there are complaints about the extreme delays for surgery and medical care above the minimum.....its very common for Canadians to have to wait a very long time in pain for surgeries that would be scheduled immediately in the US. Thats why numerous Canadians come to the US and pay for their health care rather then wait and receive no care in Canada. Same deal in Britain, where a better private system exists alongside the overcrowded inefficient government NHS. The NHS dental system in Britain is especially bad, to the point that "British Teeth" are now a world-wide joke....government ministers in Britain are regularly assaulted in public by people who have had to pull out their own teeth with pliers because no NHS dentist was available in their area at all, or the next appointment was over a year away.

Of course the US system can be greatly improved. But it doesn't help to misrepresent the basic facts. 8)
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Wed 23 Apr 2008, 12:46:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Magus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Plantagenet', '
')
Bzzzzzzt!

About 40% of the US budget is now going to transfer payments, social programs etc.


I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I was on a game show! Let me try again. I'll take US Federal budget for $200, please. :roll:

And the other 60% of the budget, then? Where is all of that money going? How much needs to be cut to bring the budget back into surplus? Given the amount that needs cut, which programs should be eliminated, and why?

This seems to be an argument of national priorities, to me.


I agree! National priorities are important. Universal health care is far lower on my scale than protecting our borders, eliminating failed programs, scaling back the size of government, and getting the people more involved.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')pples and oranges. We're discussing the federal government and this is all local government services (and they work just fine for the most part). Shall I start posting the abuses of the federal government's DHS, DEA, BTAF, FBI, and others? I don't have problems with services provided by the local government as they are much closer to the voters and are by definition more responsive the the needs of the people.


OK, fine, apparently you think the federal government is incapable of doing anything right. I can respect that perspective, if not completely agree.

Would a possible solution for you be to change health care a local government service? Just curious.


If you can come up with a paradigm that puts state/local government in charge of handling health care for its citizens, I would have absolutely no problem with that, provide the citizens voted it in. Local governments have to listen to its citizens much closer than the feds. I would of course prefer the locality in charge, but I have fewer complaints about the state governments than the federal.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')eah, and a lot of really other cool stuff... in fact I carry a copy (of the Declaration of Independence) with me wherever I go.

Seriously? That's pretty hardcore, jl261. Do you have a wallet/mini size version, or something? I don't claim to have memorized word for word the Declaration, the Constitution, or any of the other founding documents of this country (although some on this site undoubtedly have), but I do hold them in high respect.

Hard core? No, that's someone who memorizes it and carries an annotated federalist papers in their hip pocket. I spend a lot of time in activism and it's really handy to have for the not-so-occasional reference.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you mean cradle to grave protections, then we might as well stop here because I see the definition of those protections as making sure nobody is violating my rights (shooting at me, defrauding, stealing etc). It does not mean that it wipes my nose every time I have a sniffle. It does mean that it has an important oversight role to play. Unfortunately, over the past few presidents, they have failed miserably in that regard, instead passing new unneeded laws and mandates and generally making a mess of foreign policy and the world as a whole.

There is certainly a question of balance between negligence and overbearing authoritarianism.

The health care industry today is certainly defrauding Americans today, though, don't you think?

No, or if they are, it is in collusion with the state and federal governments who oversee the running of their operations.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')I mean, honestly, how much can you personally afford to pay if you become seriously ill? For certain operations these days, you could end up paying hundreds or even thousands of dollars for vital care.

I can only pay so much which is why I have health care and want to find catastrophic health care for my wife. But where we live, such health care essentially does not exist due to state mandates and so the version they can offer is full of extras we don't need and thus have to pay for, if we want it.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')n a more personal note, I just recently paid $20 dollars for tube of prescribed, topical medication with a volume of 3.5 grams. It's shorter than some of my fingers and fits into the palm of my hand. Remember, this is twenty dollars. I make ten dollars an hour. I won't even mention how much my doctor visit actually cost (which, by the way, lasted less than half an hour). What a racket.


I understand your concern and I've feel your concern because I've felt that way. I've found that it is a racket, but not like you think. Consider, why does the government demand control over non-narcotic drugs? Is someone going to buy that topical medication to get high? Are they going to rob a bank with it? What is so special about that tube of cream that government has to control its distribution? Such controls limit its use, and keep prices artificially high.

I have a skin condition, the doctor says to use xyz cream and gives me a prescription for 2 tubes. The skin condition does not completely clear up and I have to go back to the doctor to get another prescription. Why? If the condition comes back two years later then why should I have to go back to the doctor again?

If my neighbor gets the same condition, why should he have to go to the doctor when a word of what happened to me can probably take care of it. If it doesn't, he can then go have the doc check him out.

Intrusive government oversight over things that they should have no concern over keeps prices artificially high.

Why does the doctor have to see me to let me get something for my sinus infection. Why can't he ask me a few questions over the phone and decide if he needs to see me or just send a prescription to my pharmacy and charge me $20 instead of $75?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')PS and FedEx work great! I'll bet they both could deliver mail as well as the post office at a similar or lower price!

Sorry, but last time I shipped UPS. they ended up almost destroying my computer, thus eternally earning them the moniker "UPieceofShit". :-x Seriously, when the box is marked as fragile, that's when you tell the two-hundred pound gorillas to NOT smash the box upon the concrete floor.

I've never personally found the need to even bother with FedEx, but I'm sure somebody likes them, I suppose. They're still around.

If I send a letter, I put it into an envelope. If I send a picture, I put it into a padded envelope with cardboard backing for protection. If I ship a computer, I guarantee you can fumble it and I'm not going to worry about the contents because I package it really well.

Oh, and the US mail has no better shipment record with me than UPS seems to have with you.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ctually, unlike the post office, this is a constitutionally mandated job of the federal government and they do a really good job at it. The US military is the best in the world at killing people and breaking things... not so much as a police force.

True. However, wasn't there some provision in the Constitution for "providing for the common welfare," though? I could be wrong here, I suppose, since I don't carry around a pocket Constitution as you seem to, but I do seem to remember that starkly in my mind.

Yes, that and several other passages really needed some notation on what the hell they meant. I'll see if I can find a relevant note in the federalist papers but until modern history, that meant keeping peace amongst the people and a common defense from all aggressors, foreign and domestic. It did not mean setting up a nanny state or a welfare state. It did not mean arresting and jailing people who happened to be enjoying a recreational drug.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hanks for making my point on the above. The current administration is screwing us and everything up big time. This whole mess should land a lot of people in the Hague.

I completely agree. These Blackwater hired thugs don't even coordinate operations with our military sometimes; some officers in the field have dutifully reported as much. Yet, no higher action has been taken.

But, in support of my argument here, I must remind you that Blackwater is a private company (modern mercenaries, in fact). They do not answer to the people, just as the private health care firms do not answer to the people. I don't understand why you refuse to see the obvious parallels here.

Blackwater is in a foreign country in a time of war (which of course WE started). They do what the government tells them, for the most part. They do not provide a service to the american public on american soil. The parallel here is very weak and I'm not at all sure there is a valid point to be made.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')gain, think about what you just said!

"that honor falls to human nature and greed (an overabundance of it)" --- what makes you say that the government isn't overrun with this? The evidence is there every day and the sheeple just let it pass!

My point is the problem does not lie with government control, per say. I'm saying that the problems today are systemic to our entire society today.

Notice that you blame both the government and the people, which in reality are one in the same, since is it not the people place the members of the government into office?

Governments are flawed because humanity itself is tragically flawed. That's why periodic upheavals are still necessary, to clean out the human trash, so to speak. We need a paradigm shift in human consciousness, and that's exactly what we are going to get, and soon. But then again, you already know that.

Correct! Exactly right! So in the meantime if we limit government, we limit the damage it can do. If government is regulated to oversight and punishing wrong-doers then when somebody, say, defrauds a customer by promising to pay for a certain procedure and then refuses later, the government can step in and rectify the situation, punishing the wrong-doer (hopefully in a way that makes them never to want to do anything like that again).

When government takes over an industry, you no longer have an easay or quick check and balance system. The checks and balances then become the people who have short memories and poor judgement in groups larger than 2... however if you have government watching over and punishing companies for doing something illegal, you have checks and balances. So having the government watch over health care providers, insurers, and manufacturers and not actually try to become one provides the checks and balances for a system to work effectively.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ore? I want less through competition and choice! I want them to have to earn my trust and business! I want them to do what they can to make me happy that I let them part me from my money! I sure as frack do not want to let any one entity, especially government, control my health care decisions!

You argue against but you give all the evidence in the world for what I say.

Tell me, how much choice do you really have in health care today? You can use exorbitantly expensive provider numbers 1, 2, and 3. What is the benefit you see in this? Also, do you really want put your life in the hands of somebody who is not helping you because they sincerely care whether you live or die, just how much money you happen to be able to pay? I can certainly see the need for government oversight in this matter, at the very least.

I fail to see how I particularly strengthen your argument here, as well, merely you reiterating how much you fear state control.

I'm sorry, I thought I was quite clear. It's proven time and again that competition drives down cost and tends to improve service. I don't have much choice here as I have blue cross/blue shield or blue cross/blue shield or a non-blue cross/blue sheild provider. All of which compete for a 55% share of the market controlled by the very entity that handles the other 45% of the market AND makes many of the rules. I don't call that competition.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is a choice? I'm glad you think you have that choice.

Care to present evidence on how it is now impossible for an American to immigrate? I'm curious as to what your getting at here.

Perhaps I should have said "I'm glad you think that is a choice. I for one would never think of leaving the US unless it got much worse than it is. We (so far) still have a pretty decent voice in the affairs of government, we just don't have enough people agreeing to what that voice should say. I have the ability and right to protect myself and I can travel around with one type of money and no papers (if i don't drive or fly) and nobody can say much (except for the nice federal government that can throw me in jail for no cause and no reason, if someone felt like it).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hile the voting thing is exactly the proper response which less than half of the voters actually care to do, the rioting and revolution are messy, destructive things that usually lead to totalitarianism, not freedom. Thanks, I'll stick to activism and voting.

That pocket Constitution that you hold so dear was born from the fire of revolution. You remember that, of course, but it's hard to tell from that statement you made here.

Revolution is sometimes necessary to assert the rights and freedom of a people. That is the very foundation of this country, isn't it? And yet you decry revolution as "messy, destructive things?!" Have you forgotten what this country originally stood for?

Sometimes, mere activism is simply not enough. If the situation in the US gets much worse, then it may be the only option left. Do you disagree?

NO! I do not disagree, my point is that it would have to get much worse than it is before I would consider the shedding of blood to be a proper response. Remember, the founding fathers were fighting some terrible injustices. No right to represent themselves. No right to redress wrongs. Military forcibly being housed and fed by the people. No right to a day in court. No right to jury by their peers.... the list goes on. These people were almost saintly in their patience and desire to reconcile with their masters and stood up only after a long line of abuses which rivaled that of some of the worst dictators in history.

We're far from that my friend. If a significant number of people of this great country stand with one voice, I can promise you things would change overnight. That is far from the government that Misters Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, and Washington were up against.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')gain, you make my point! I love it! The federal government has never been capable of doing this and will never be capable under our current set of rules and rulers in DC. Don't you see? The people have let Washington screw them over and we're being told that the reason they haven't solved the problem is because they haven't spent enough money, yet!

See above. Also, universal health care seems to work elsewhere, so yes, it is our problem. Did I ever actually disagree with that fact? I don't think I did...I do think that we should fix this problem, however. We are talking about this to fix the problems, yes?

Or am I wasting my time.

You want a government sponsored, controlled and taxed system that will be a one-size-fits-all that will require people going to court to get problems solved. You want a single entity that has no interest except in perpetuating itself to control almost 20% of the economy.

I want a free market system that allows people to have a selection of companies and choose the one that provides the insurance they need at the time. I want doctors to be able to streamline their business and see more patients and not have to hire a bevy of clerical workers to fill out the paper work! I want to be able to go to the pharmacy and get a muscle relaxer for my pulled back if I worked too hard during the weekend. And I want the government to come running if somebody cheats me or steals my hard earned money by promising me something they will not provide as written in the contract.

I also believe you'd find more free clinics under my solution since drugs would be cheaper and doctors a little less worried about where their next student loan payment is coming from. Unreasonable regulations limits supply and that makes things more expensive.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ompetition works every time. It has never failed unless government stepped in and did something that warped the market.

Really? I guess the outsourcing of our industrial base that international corporations have taken over to China and India are absolutely no problem at all. I'm sure that the free market will just sort everything out just fine. Remember: Always the low prices!

Always! Go back to sleep.

Sure it's a problem... but why did it happen? While I think this would make a very interesting thread, I'll take a short stab at it.

Corporate taxes, property taxes, warped economy due to subsidized freeways at taxpayer expense but railroads that have to pay for everything they use. Mandated government social programs that force me to eventually spend nearly 50% more on every one of my employees. Encouraging ever-lasting economic growth with artificial inflation due to economic and money policies.

When given the choice to a widget costing a $1 buck to make and get to market because of all of these policies and mandates, or 10 cents from China to the market, what is the good capitalist going to do? Especially if he's in competition with someone who makes a similar product for $1.

And yes, in the end, it is going to work out even with all of what has happened, but because of the stupid growth-at-all-costs policy of the US government, a lot of people are going to get hurt in the process. I have more to say on this, in other threads, to the problems of corporations which are created by the government, but that's a digression; we're talking about health care. Which I guess is a digression from the stated topic, but at least a related digression.
When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
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