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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 13:58:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'Y')ou make is sound like breakthroughs are bad

They generally are bad. They consume obscene amounts of money and resources and produce trivial benefits to health. Ultimately they drive up the cost of healthcare to the point where many people can't afford any healthcare. That's why Americans come out number one in healthcare costs and number 37 in health. We shovel money at things like transplant programs and $1000 per dose drugs that provide little health benefit per dollar instead of at things like primary care that provide big health benefits per dollar. Primary care isn't sexy. It doesn't make for an intriguing blurb in the science section of the evening news, but unlike transplant programs, it actually provides significant health benefits. Transplant programs are the headlight wipers of healthcare.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:14:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'w')hy bother? because a fresh cup of coffee is coursing through my veins?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'I')s it based on statistics that show the US citizen dies at a much younger age or there are more disabled people? Are you comparing us with a socialist government's display of universal health care that ends up taxing people into oblivion while providing the same health care to all citizens (we won't go into the level of health care provided, at this time or where it's rich citizens go to get their health care).
Isn't oblivion a place where people go to die? In socialist countries such as Sweden oblivion could be a spa. I'll bet most uninsured Americans would rather be in oblivion than stuck in an emergency room for a toothache.


You so rock, PStarr.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:18:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'Y')ou make is sound like breakthroughs are bad

They generally are bad. They consume obscene amounts of money and resources and produce trivial benefits to health. Ultimately they drive up the cost of healthcare to the point where many people can't afford any healthcare. That's why Americans come out number one in healthcare costs and number 37 in health. We shovel money at things like transplant programs and $1000 per dose drugs that provide little health benefit per dollar instead of at things like primary care that provide big health benefits per dollar. Primary care isn't sexy. It doesn't make for an intriguing blurb in the science section of the evening news, but unlike transplant programs, it actually provides significant health benefits. Transplant programs are the headlight wipers of healthcare.


SPG, speaking of breakthroughs, it looks to me like big pharma is trying to extend the dangers of high blood pressure into the Alzheimer's zone, now. I'm just waiting for them to pressure the medical establishment into accepting that it's the leading cause of psoriasis and cancer. What a break through!!
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:20:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'Y')ou make is sound like breakthroughs are bad

They generally are bad. They consume obscene amounts of money and resources and produce trivial benefits to health. Ultimately they drive up the cost of health care to the point where many people can't afford any health care. That's why Americans come out number one in health care costs and number 37 in health. We shovel money at things like transplant programs and $1000 per dose drugs that provide little health benefit per dollar instead of at things like primary care that provide big health benefits per dollar. Primary care isn't sexy. It doesn't make for an intriguing blurb in the science section of the evening news, but unlike transplant programs, it actually provides significant health benefits. Transplant programs are the headlight wipers of health care.


OK, so we'll quit with the breakthroughs... PUT ON THE BREAKS EVERYONE! No more new drugs, no more new cures, no more research.

I'm sorry, that's crazy talk!

First, the #1 way to stay healthy is to get off one's ass and get in shape... no doctor can do anything for a person who won't do this.

Second, basic health care? What is it!?!?! Define your terms because you are just saying basic health care. You are not advancing your argument. Explain what this basic health care is. What does it cover? What does it include? You don't have to get in great detail. In fact, here's a start for a BASIC health plan...

* Cover's drugs that cost over $40 a month.
* Cover's one doctor check up a year, basic blood work and labs for reasonably detectable problems.
* Cover's two dentist check ups a year plus basic dental care.
* Covers problems from accidents including broken bones, lacerations, etc. Does not cover reattachment of limbs (extra rider).
* Covers birth control prescriptions (free) and neo natal visits.
* Covers one eye exam and basic glasses every two years.
* Covers nothing if the patients Body Mass Index is in the "obese" range.

Remember, anything above this (and there is a lot, such as premie babies, cancer, etc) is proably a death sentence economically or literally. So choose your terms carefully while remembering each additional benifit costs money.

One of the big issues as to why insurance cost so much is because the can't offer just basic health care. They have to offer all sorts of things mandated by the particular state they are working in. Some states mandate mental health care, some mandate Viagra! Who the heck needs Viagra in a basic health care plan?

Define what is it that you want basic health care to do and then check the laws of your state and I'll bet a cookie that the state you live in mandates a heck of a lot more. Your government in action!
When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:24:07

Well for starters, JLW61, government can step in and order schools to quit selling crap in their cafeterias. It's under way here in Canada. They can also launch programs in schools that get kids off their asses and cut back on homework, so they have more time for something called "playing" when they get home. It's not rocket science. It's just enforcing responsibility and working for the greater good, rather than bending over for big corporations and then calling it "freedom of choice".
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:38:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')ell for starters, JLW61, government can step in and order schools to quit selling crap in their cafeterias. It's under way here in Canada. They can also launch programs in schools that get kids off their asses and cut back on homework, so they have more time for something called "playing"


Shouldn't the Canadian government also order the kids to go outside and play so they don't just take advantage of the government-mandated homework limits to sit in front of the TV? :)
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:47:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')ell for starters, JLW61, government can step in and order schools to quit selling crap in their cafeterias. It's under way here in Canada. They can also launch programs in schools that get kids off their asses and cut back on homework, so they have more time for something called "playing" when they get home. It's not rocket science. It's just enforcing responsibility and working for the greater good, rather than bending over for big corporations and then calling it "freedom of choice".


Here in Canada? So you know what's going on in the United States schools? Do you know why it's happening? Government mandates, not corporate greed. How much experience do you have with schools in the US or are you just working from the information provided to you by the press?

Everything with you people is the fault of evil corporations and villains out to rob widows and orphans. And best of all, I'm always hearing about how corporations run the US! PROOF! All I ask for is PROOF!

Does the current administration belong in jail and several of their cronies in Haliburton??? YES! Does Haliburton run the US? NO!

Oh, sorry, my dark overlord just called and told me to end this post.
When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 14:57:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'S')PG, speaking of breakthroughs, it looks to me like big pharma is trying to extend the dangers of high blood pressure into the Alzheimer's zone, now. I'm just waiting for them to pressure the medical establishment into accepting that it's the leading cause of psoriasis and cancer. What a break through!!


That's not actually so much of a leap TB. Hypertension is one of the largest risk factors for stroke. Small recurring strokes cause one of the more common types of dementia - Multi-Infarct dementia. Alzheimers is a distinct type of dementia, but it also ends up being a catch all for people that really have other types of dementia. Undoubtedly some of what gets diagnosed as Alzheimers is in fact multi-infarct dementia.

Hypertension causes bad things. Things that take you from living a happy healthy life and either kill you or make you seriously dependent: strokes, heart attacks, kidney failure. If I can treat somebody's blood pressure for $4 a month, and prevent them from getting dementia that's a very good deal. It's a good deal because having dementia sucks. It's also a good deal because taking care of dementia is expensive. Dementia meds are super expensive and don't work very well. A lot of dementia patients eventually end up institutionalized which is mega-expensive.

Properly managed, hypertension generally isn't a gold mine for pharmaceuticals. Some of the best studied, and most effective BP meds are available as generics on the Wal-Mart $4/mo drug list. You should suspect a rat, however, any time you hear someone promoting angiotensin receptor blockers or calcium channel blockers. They're don't work as well as other classes, and they can be $100-200 a month for a single med.
Last edited by smallpoxgirl on Mon 21 Apr 2008, 15:07:04, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 15:00:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'W')ell for starters, JLW61, government can step in and order schools to quit selling crap in their cafeterias. It's under way here in Canada. They can also launch programs in schools that get kids off their asses and cut back on homework, so they have more time for something called "playing" when they get home. It's not rocket science. It's just enforcing responsibility and working for the greater good, rather than bending over for big corporations and then calling it "freedom of choice".


Here in Canada? So you know what's going on in the United States schools? Do you know why it's happening? Government mandates, not corporate greed. How much experience do you have with schools in the US or are you just working from the information provided to you by the press?

Everything with you people is the fault of evil corporations and villains out to rob widows and orphans. And best of all, I'm always hearing about how corporations run the US! PROOF! All I ask for is PROOF!

Does the current administration belong in jail and several of their cronies in Haliburton??? YES! Does Haliburton run the US? NO!

Oh, sorry, my dark overlord just called and told me to end this post.


I lived there, and will NEVER go back. And btw, my husband made his living in a limited partnership, small business. Neither one of us are ideologically opposed to sensible forms of capitalism. But critical of big corporations? You'd have to be f'g crazy not to be, at this point.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 15:05:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'S')PG, speaking of breakthroughs, it looks to me like big pharma is trying to extend the dangers of high blood pressure into the Alzheimer's zone, now. I'm just waiting for them to pressure the medical establishment into accepting that it's the leading cause of psoriasis and cancer. What a break through!!


That's not actually so much of a leap TB. Hypertension is one of the largest risk factors for stroke. Small recurring strokes cause one of the more common types of dementia - Multi-Infarct dementia.

Properly managed, hypertension generally isn't a gold mine for pharmaceuticals. Some of the best studied, and most effective BP meds are available as generics on the Wal-Mart $4/mo drug list. You should suspect a rat, however, any time you hear someone promoting angiotensin receptor blockers or calcium channel blockers. They're don't work as well as other classes, and they can be $100-200 a month for a single med.


I'm aware of the multi-infarc dementia, and of course, in that case, blood pressure meds are required. But I also wonder, if elevated blood pressure,( where other causative factors are excluded, like obesity and high cholesterol), isn't just a feature of age.

Is it ever considered by the medical establishment that increased pressure may be nature's way of keeping your blood circulating properly as you age?
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 15:26:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I')'m aware of the multi-infarc dementia, and of course, in that case, blood pressure meds are required. But I also wonder, if elevated blood pressure,( where other causative factors are excluded, like obesity and high cholesterol), isn't just a feature of age.


Where the levels for "hypertension" come from is life insurance underwriting. They figured out before doctors did that people with certain levels of blood pressure were more likely to die during the term of an insurance policy than were people with lower blood pressures. Risk of heart attack, stroke, renal failure, all start to creep up at about a systolic pressure of 120. The higher you get, the higher the risk. 140/90 is the point where we say the risk to your health from the hypertension is greater than the risk to your health from taking medicines. There are good studies that controlling blood pressure, at least with certain medicines, reduces the risk of those bad things happening to you.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')s it ever considered by the medical establishment that increased pressure may be nature's way of keeping your blood circulating properly as you age?
When blood isn't "circulating properly" i.e. the tissues aren't getting enough blood flow, we divide that into three distinct diseases that I can think of. If it's happening to you're whole body, we call it shock. If it's happening to your heart muscle when you exert yourself, that's called angina. When it's happening to a skeletal muscle when you exert yourself, that's called claudication. Hypertension contributes to angina, and it doesn't affect claudication. Blood pressure is a factor in shock, but you certainly wouldn't go into shock just from controlling your hypertension. Typically shock is either caused by massive blood loss or overwhelming infection. Someone who is on blood pressure meds might be somewhat more at risk of shock if they lost a lot of blood in a car crash, for example, but the overall risk to them is much lower than the risk from having a heart attack .
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 15:29:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'I') lived there, and will NEVER go back. And btw, my husband made his living in a limited partnership, small business. Neither one of us are ideologically opposed to sensible forms of capitalism. But critical of big corporations? You'd have to be f'g crazy not to be, at this point.


I guess I'm f'g crazy then. I'm not opposed to large corporations. I'm opposed to government protections for large corporations. I'm opposed to government welfare to large corporations. I'm opposed to government corruption feeding into large corporations, small corporations, or somebody's piggy bank.

I'm opposed to government creating new crimes and new criminals because they can. I'm opposed to all of the people sitting in jail because they were caught with a joint. I'm opposed to government wasting billions of dollars every single day!

I don't begrudge Exxon for making $11 billion dollars last quarter, paying a nice dividend and spending some of that money to explore for more oil. I do begrudge the government for bilking over 15 billion in gas taxes last quarter and producing nothing but new laws and causing pain to its citizens.

I am not angry at GM for selling so many 1 ton pickups, Apple for selling so many iPods, or Microsoft for selling Vista ... scratch that, I am angry at Microsoft for releasing Vista. I am also angry at the government for raising the price of birth control pills, bailing out Bears & Stern, and printing money as fast as they can buy ink.

Big corporations aren't the enemy, though some of them may act like it from time to time.
When somebody makes a statement you don't understand, don't tell him he's crazy. Ask him what he means. -- Otto Harkaman, Space Viking
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 15:34:30

Your just angry period. :razz:
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:12:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'I')'m opposed to government protections for large corporations.

Do you understand what a corporation actually is?


Paraphrasing from memory: A corporation is a business entity that provides certain protections to the owners and stock holders. It creates an umbrella entity that provides for easier interstate and international trading and recognition. The duty of a corporation is to provide value to its stockholders.

It is not the devil. It should not be taxed, it should not receive welfare or special protections. A corporation must be allowed to fail if the people running it do something irreversably stupid.

I do not mean the old standard protections provided a corporation regarding trademarks, tax law, etc. I mean the relatively newly minted protections that allows the government to decide if a large corporation can be allowed to fail (Chrysler, Bear Sterns, etc) and the hanky panky going on between the current administration and Haliburton (which in this case is just plain ol' corruption at it's level best).

I should have clarified that, sorry. Thank you for your question, it's a breath of fresh air to see someone ask for clarification.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby vision-master » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:18:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jlw61', 'I')'m opposed to government protections for large corporations.

Do you understand what a corporation actually is?


Paraphrasing from memory: A corporation is a business entity that provides certain protections to the owners and stock holders. It creates an umbrella entity that provides for easier interstate and international trading and recognition. The duty of a corporation is to provide value to its stockholders.

It is not the devil. It should not be taxed, it should not receive welfare or special protections. A corporation must be allowed to fail if the people running it do something irreversably stupid.

I do not mean the old standard protections provided a corporation regarding trademarks, tax law, etc. I mean the relatively newly minted protections that allows the government to decide if a large corporation can be allowed to fail (Chrysler, Bear Sterns, etc) and the hanky panky going on between the current administration and Haliburton (which in this case is just plain ol' corruption at it's level best).

I should have clarified that, sorry.


I am getting hypertension from your posts. Three years of dealing with "you're" types at www.labusas.org is enough.

jlw61, you are going on my igrone buton for a while. Nothing personal, it's just that your perfume is a little strong for me. :razz:
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:19:49

SPG,

In Canada, pressures that were considered within normal range, last year, are now considered outside of normal range, and medication is urged, regardless of age. My mother is being urged to get her pressure down to 120/80. She is, at the same time, experiencing weakness in her legs, a bit of vertigo, on and off, etc...She's been checked for multi-infarc syndrome, doesn't appear to have it. We'll definitely know more in the next few months.

Thanks for responding I appreciate it.

This article is kind of interesting. I don't know if it's relevant or not. It might be a load of rubbish. You'll know better than I.

"High blood pressure in midlife is a risk factor for developing dementia, as well as for coronary heart disease and stroke. However, things are a bit different as people get older. In people over 75, it seems that a blood pressure that's too low can also be a risk factor for Alzheimer's. A study reported in the medical journal Neurology shows that the diastolic pressure - the lower reading - is clearly linked to the risk of developing Alzheimer's in such people during the following 7 years. Here's a summary of the findings


http://www.healthandage.com/public/heal ... eople.html
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:31:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'M')y mother is being urged to get her pressure down to 120/80.


That's the old "normal" range, been "normal" for at least a decade.


I've had high blood pressure since I was in my early 20s. Back then, I was underweight for my height.

I have state-sponsored health insurance for "high risk" people (because of my mental illness, not my high blood pressure). It costs over $4000 a year for just me (paid for by me).

I would love national health care if it cost less than that.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:36:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'Y')our just angry period. :razz:


I'm also a white male and my wife is the classical soccer mom. My son-in-law is the classical building contractor and my brother is a classical capitalist-pig. I have a cousin who is a communist teaching at a university, an aunt who is a welfare mom and a 3rd cousin twice removed by marriage that works in a circus.
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby threadbear » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:46:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'M')y mother is being urged to get her pressure down to 120/80.


That's the old "normal" range, been "normal" for at least a decade.


I've had high blood pressure since I was in my early 20s. Back then, I was underweight for my height.

I have state-sponsored health insurance for "high risk" people (because of my mental illness, not my high blood pressure). It costs over $4000 a year for just me (paid for by me).

I would love national health care if it cost less than that.


I had 120/80, when I was a kid and physically very active and thin as a rake. Now my health is really lousy, I'm not nearly as active, I'm heavier, and it's 90/75. I call that symptomatic, not healthy, in my case.

Ludi, you have a kind of co-pay situation with your insurance? I can remember a doctor insisting I had follow up ultra sound, etc... after an "abnormal" mammogram. I told him, I could just about guarantee it wasn't cancer, and that I knew exactly what it was, as I'd had it before, but I humored him, all the same.

It turned out, I was right, it was nothing, but the ultra sound, put me into a higher risk of cancer category with my provider and my insurance rates doubled. I had to get out of the country, or my throat would have become inflamed from chronic rage and attacks of screaming, at that point! :lol:
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Re: America's Health: We're #1 In Cost. We're #37 In Care.

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 21 Apr 2008, 16:49:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')Ludi, you have a kind of co-pay situation with your insurance?


There's a co-pay, but my deductible is so high ($5000.00) I always end up paying the entire cost.
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