[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dissimulo', 'L')ifetime mileage of 67.3 on my 2000. Sadly, this is the last year of the Insight. Too bad it never caught on.

[PeakOiler]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dissimulo', 'L')ifetime mileage of 67.3 on my 2000. Sadly, this is the last year of the Insight. Too bad it never caught on.

[I_Like_Plants]

They've been running commercials for it on TV, and according to the Honda site, they're going to start leasing a limited number of them in summer of 2008.

There's a lot of info on Honda's site, apparently this thing works like my (now repo'd) Prius, except with some sort of gadget that converts gasoline + air into high pressure hydrogen, which is then used by the fuel cell to supply electricity to the motors that actually drive the car.

I see two major problems: High pressure H2 and the Li-ion battery (Li burns real good)

They say it will get 70MPG, is this all worth it?

[Plantagenet]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'i')s this all worth it?

[Graeme]

I've read references about competition for federal funds for fuel cell cars versus battery-powered cars. Here is a car that combines both technologies. However, I'm not an automotive engineer so I'm appealing to the experts in this forum to comment. The comments at the bottom of this article may also be of interest.

Fuel Cell Powertrain in the Honda FCX Clarity Is Significant Advancement over Predecessors

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')onda’s production fuel cell vehicle, the FCX Clarity, introduced at the Los Angeles Auto Show and due to begin limited leasing in the spring (earlier post), represents significant advancements in all areas of the powertrain from Honda’s earlier fuel cell vehicles.

The FCX Clarity utilizes Honda’s V Flow Stack in combination with a new compact and efficient lithium-ion battery pack and a single hydrogen storage tank to power the vehicle’s electric drive motor. The fuel cell stack operates as the vehicle’s main power source.

[lowem]

I've been skeptical of hydrogen myself for quite a while now. We all know the "hydrogen is not an energy source" drill - how it's an energy carrier, plus issues of storage, transportation and "where it's gonna come from".

I recently came across this article on vtec.net, and the author had this to say :

"... fuel cell vehicles have a unique advantage in that they do not have to carry all their reactant with them. What does this mean? Well, in a battery, the sum total of available energy must be held completely within the battery. This means that batteries tend to be heavy and expensive for a given amount of energy storage. On the other hand, a fuel cell car must only carry its own hydrogen. The other part of its reactant, oxygen, is available from the atmosphere. And in the hydrogen/oxygen reaction, only 11% of the required mass of materials is carried in the hydrogen. Thus, a fuel cell car only has to carry little more than 10% of its weight in reactant."

Here's the link :
http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-artic ... _id=724661

IMHO, that's a pretty good point. For a similar range (270 miles), a pure EV would probably need batteries that fill the entire boot space (a la Tesla Roadster).

Now all we need is, say, 50 trillion dollars for the rest of the world to catch up - from changing the entire vehicular fleet, refueling infrastructure, to putting up solar power satellites to beam down the power from space to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen so that the new FCV's can take the hydrogen and pull in the oxygen to power themselves and turn it back into water and ...

[whereagles]

50 trillions?

peanuts..

[Graeme]

It's my understanding that the last major hurdle for widespread implementation of a hydrogen economy is hydrogen storage. I will be looking for developments in this area.

[emersonbiggins]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Graeme', 'I')t's my understanding that the last major hurdle for widespread implementation of a hydrogen economy is hydrogen storage. I will be looking for developments in this area.

[Graeme]

I posted an article on the 8th November about a home system for making hydrogen. I expect this to be the model T of futures systems. I'm sure you are aware of the various techniques for creating hydrogen - solar, biological and nuclear, as well as natural gas , which will be used first. This techology is still in it's infancy - it has not by any means been completely ruled out.

However, I have read that if the storage problem cannot be solved then this techology will not be viable (sorry, I can't find reference). If it is solved, then there will still be enough time to gradually introduce hydrogen as an alternative fuel to run cars, buses, motorcycles, trucks and planes. Unfortunately, many (like myself) are not hydrogen-technology experts so their criticism is not justifiable, but I can refer you to general articles on fuel cells, and hydrogen vehicles for nearly up-to-date information.

My impression of the the above vehicle is that it combines the best of battery techology (energy storage) with fuel cell technology (main power source, longer range). I expect there will be further improvements in this combined technology in the years ahead.

[lowem]

IMHO, the generation of the hydrogen (aka "where is it going to come from?") is a bigger problem than the storage of the hydrogen.

Only caveat I've heard of so far regarding compressed hydrogen is that you can't keep it around too long, since, being the smallest atom there is, it tends to leak out from anything that tries to contain it. That's it.

The FCX Clarity goes almost 300 miles on a tankful of compressed hydrogen, while churning out 134 hp with a decent 0-60 mph (~100 kmh) timing of 9-10 seconds. That's more than good enough for me.

The home refueling system is another first. Honda also has got a solar-powered refueling station that generates hydrogen entirely from solar panels situated near the station. The only thing is that it takes a few days, give or take depending on sunny conditions, to generate enough hydrogen to top up a single car. Not exactly mass-production scale, huh.

If we were to think about it in oil industry terms, we could say that the downstream part of this hydrogen thing has been shown to be pretty much viable.

The upstream part is the worrying thing. It's funny but it kind of reminds me of the phrase "water, water everywhere ..."

[Graeme]

Honda to invest in hybrids for major global expansion

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')onda is investing in hybrids and other technologies to tap growing consumer demand for environmentally friendly cars and keep its sales momentum going, the automaker's president said. Honda President Takeo Fukui made clear that his company has something unique to offer in gas-and-electric hybrids and brushed off Toyota's lead in the segment with the best-selling Prius.

To maintain its technological prowess, Honda is earmarking 48 billion yen ($424 million; 294 million euros) in a new research center in Japan to focus on next-generation cars, including hybrids and fuel cells, Fukui said. The center will be partially running by 2009, and fully open by 2010, and will also focus on research for new technology for Honda's Acura luxury brand models, he said.

[vision-master]

My little Geo Metro could get 60 mpg highway driving in hot weather. 4 seater & straight gas operated. That was back when gas was $1 gal.

[WisJim]

Our 2000 Metro still gets 55mpg on the highway with one or 2 people, 38 to 42 in town for short trips, and the Honda Civic VX (1992) does better than that. Some of the earlier Metros did get better mileage.

I talked to a fellow at the Energy Fair in Custer, WI, last June who got 90mpg on his drive up from Milwaukee, in his Insight. The Honda dealer in LaCrosse, WI, promotes the dealership as the biggest hybrid car dealer in the country, and does workshops on getting maximum mpg with your hybrid. He feels you should get 70+mpg hiway with an Insight, or you are doing something wrong.

Everyone that I know that has an Insight loves it.

[Mechler]

I'm waiting for the new VW TDIs. Supposed to get around 50mpg combined (in a station wagon!) and be 50 state emission certified. Don't have to worry about any batteries, just VW reliability

[gg3]

Times when I've rented a 3-cylinder Geo Metro: 65 mpg at 65 mph on the freeway, just me + my tools & equipment, no passengers, and with the air conditioning on.

OK, so how the hell can the car companies claim they can't do it? They already did.

There's no good reason (I said "good" reason!) the next Pres couldn't just tell the car companies: 50 MPG by the third year of my term or I'll shred you. And back it up with enough speeches & PR to get the citizens on-side. The primary way advertising works is by repetition, so if the efficiency message is repeated enough, it will stick and people will adjust.

Though, here's a free-market solution. Allow unlimited imporation of any vehicles that do 50 mpg or better, regardless of safety regulation compliance, under the condition that all non-compliant aspects of the vehicle are disclosed in clear and unambiguous language in the advertising material for the car, and in the purchase contract, similar to SEC disclosures on business plans: "This vehicle fails a frontal and side-impact crash test. This vehicle is not equipped with airbags or equivalent passive restraints...." etc. Then let people decide for themselves whether they'd rather risk dying in a car accident or in a climate catastrophe.

Honda Insight: I think would benefit from actual cargo space. As far as I know there's a shelf behind the seats and that's all, no trunk under the rear hatch. That's a deal-killer for me. (Or am I mistaken?) Aside from that, great design, and here's to hoping they'll bring back a slightly larger version.

[Electric_Economy_2025]

WOW now Honda has something comming out next year who's next

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n addition to the new hybrid, Honda will introduce several other hybrids: a Civic, a new sporty model based on the CR-Z and a Fit subcompact, sold as the Jazz in Europe, Fukui said.

[idiom]

Honda already has a Hybrid Civic available around the world.

I believe it was the one that had rough sales due to the 'it doesn't look wierd like a Prius, so my peers won't think I'm green' effect.

[Eli]

idiom the Honda Civic hybrid was a flop because of the way Honda chose to implement the hybrid system. It didn't get you that much better gas mileage, but it added power to the car. If they had designed it to be like the Prius and really maximize fuel economy then they would of had something.

The next killer hybrid needs a 20 mile all electric range. The first company to do that will win big.