[Ludi]

There's no such entity as "collective humanity."

[Brokaws-area]

Bas wrote
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')It will be a coming of age - story for humanity as a whole in the sense that we will learn about our responsibilities we have as a species as a whole, and that's something that has never happened, until now we only had hints towards something like that; disastrous global climate change and only that can and will teach us that lesson, and it will be the most important lesson we've ever learned or will ever learn; it will firmly put into our collective minds our position relative to nature.

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')here's no such entity as "collective humanity."

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', '
')Personally, I think you, along with 95% of the population of this board lack imagination; when the multitude of variables become more than your brain can handle you conclude "error, doom", really, to step over that may be a big step for a human mind, but a small step for humankind.

[Bas]

your comment is ridiculous EU, I take this climate change debate far beyond than anybody. I expect my own country to be completely gone by the end of the century; does that strike you as "everything will be fine?"

I'm the biggest climatic doomer on this board, and granted it will be much bigger than peakoil, and I've been the first and foremost to argue that western civilization will subside to asian dominance, so who are you to call me anything?

you are the one who is bashing EU, you didn't call me on content, I didn't say things were going to be allright, the opposite in fact. You could bring your criticism in a more respectful manner but I suspect you are only here for putting other people down and that that gets you off somehow.

so come with some real criticism or contribution to this discussion already, bitch.

[sjn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'y')our comment is ridiculous EU, I take this climate change debate far beyond than anybody. I expect my own country to be completely gone by the end of the century; does that strike you as "everything will be fine?"

I'm the biggest climatic doomer on this board, and granted it will be much bigger than peakoil, and I've been the first and foremost to argue that western civilization will subside to asian dominance, so who are you to call me anything?

you are the one who is bashing EU, you didn't call me on content, I didn't say things were going to be allright, the opposite in fact. You could bring your criticism in a more respectful manner but I suspect you are only here for putting other people down and that that gets you off somehow.

so come with some real criticism or contribution to this discussion already, bitch.

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '
')The hope for the future lies not in changing the nature of masses of humanity, but in the survivors adopting a culture which is sustainable within the limits of the Earth.

[sjn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '
')The hope for the future lies not in changing the nature of masses of humanity, but in the survivors adopting a culture which is sustainable within the limits of the Earth.

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '
')You have no idea about how I perceive reality, nor my ability to handle complex problems. You state: "catastrophic climate change is a certainty", yet you also state that that "that die-off is a possibility but by no means a foregone conclusion", no word-twisting is needed to take issue with that. Frankly, you would be more credible if you said that catastrophic climate change is highly likely, then at least the other statement would be consistent. There is no possibility of having "catastrophic climate change" without a die-off, one will inevitably lead to the other. Sorry if that's too black and white for you.

[sjn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '
')You have no idea about how I perceive reality, nor my ability to handle complex problems. You state: "catastrophic climate change is a certainty", yet you also state that that "that die-off is a possibility but by no means a foregone conclusion", no word-twisting is needed to take issue with that. Frankly, you would be more credible if you said that catastrophic climate change is highly likely, then at least the other statement would be consistent. There is no possibility of having "catastrophic climate change" without a die-off, one will inevitably lead to the other. Sorry if that's too black and white for you.

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '
')No, but I do accept the reverse. Disastrous climate change is likely, and a die-off because of it is a certainty.

[sjn]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '
')No, but I do accept the reverse. Disastrous climate change is likely, and a die-off because of it is a certainty.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '.')..Irrespective of overpopulation, when species, and indeed human civilizations have collapsed in the past it was due to multiple impacts, any one of which would cause strain but when taken taken together form synergies which overwhelm the ability of the population to adapt to the changes.

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sjn', '
')No, but I do accept the reverse. Disastrous climate change is likely, and a die-off because of it is a certainty.

[turmoil]

Don't worry guys. I think I figured out why we are here:

Mitigating Climate change is not profitable / possible (on a necessary scale) because the cheapest resources are the most polluting.

Adapting to climate change creates a whole new market for goods and services regarding higher seas, droughts, and a generally warmer climate.

I welcome the challenges posing humankind right now. Sure there will be suffering. But when has there been no suffering?

Welcome to the bottleneck. Maybe on the other side we will be smarter than yeast.

[Ferretlover]

I know that it is possible that some, or many, will die due higher temperatures-it happens about every summer here in the US.
How might the human body change/mutate to accommodate the climate changes?

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'I') know that it is possible that some, or many, will die due higher temperatures-it happens about every summer here in the US.
How might the human body change/mutate to accommodate the climate changes?

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bas', 'y')our comment is ridiculous EU, I take this climate change debate far beyond than anybody. I expect my own country to be completely gone by the end of the century; does that strike you as "everything will be fine?"

[Bas]

What I said was that the human brain can't succesfully juggle more than about 7 variables, and when we do try to juggle more than that we fail but often do not realize that, rather we make false conclusions of doom. Thinking that my country will be sunk doesn't lead me automatically to the conclusion that the people will go with it; for one there are too many factors involved.

As for ad homiums and namecalling, you kicked off that game by calling me a cornucopian. And apparently you insist to put in me one of two boxes which make up your two box universe of people; you're either doomer or cornucopian and that kind of reasoning just sets me off. Presumably under Asian dominance, sure? now you are the one displaying what you accused me off in the first place; not being able to comprehend that all great civilizations are doomed.

my mantra of ""we will learn something and everything will be fine". !? I never proposed such a thing; you're just being denigrating. I do not display unfounded beliefs that everything in the future will be close to current status quo regardless of any inputs from Nature, because I don't believe that. I just said that while catastrophic climate change is a certainty, die off is not. I also don't pretend to be smarter than 95% of the board, I just learned to not make false conclusions when there are too many variables to take into account, instead drawing no conclusions. You on the other hand seem champion the art of jumping to conclusions.

[gg3]

.
No, I'm the biggest climate doomer on the board.

Not only do I believe that catastrophic climate change is more than 75% probable. I also believe that (whether driven directly by climate or other causes) a greater than 60% net dieoff of the human race is 100% probable within the next two centuries, due to the sustainable carrying cpacity of Earth being about 2 - 3 billion humans at roughly a European standard of living.

That's doom for close to 4 billion. Anyone who wants to say they're a bigger doomer than I, has to come up with a viable rationale for a larger number of people doomed.

So there. Nyah-nyah!:-)

---

Argue, argue, yell, yell. Look, people, if we can't get over it here, among ourselves, what hope do we have of saving the planet?

---

The rationale for continuing to work as if we can make a difference, has less to do with whether or not it makes us feel better, and more to do with the fact that our doomful forecasts may turn out to be wrong.

'Tis better to try, and fail, than to fail to try at all, and one might even succeed.