[Ludi]

So how to deal with this kind of denial?

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o how to deal with this kind of denial?

[Ludi]

I haven't really seen the "sheer terror." I know you believe it's there, but, I haven't really seen any indication of it....what I see is the belief that "someone will take care of it" with ethanol, electric cars, nuke plants, etc etc....

[Pops]

Interestingly I think the best idea for dealing with PO has been lurking around for a while.

The answer to PO is exactly what nearing the peak of hydrocarbon production has brought about – the threat of global warming.

Give folks an ultimatum (PO.com, etc.)
Or,
Give them a challenge (reducing Green House Gasses as in Going Green )

Going Green as in the several broadcast TV shows and more than a few network news segments I have seen lately.

Which do you think will achieve the greatest traction?

Don't get me wrong, I ain't moving back to town yet....

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') haven't really seen the "sheer terror." I know you believe it's there, but, I haven't really seen any indication of it....what I see is the belief that "someone will take care of it" with ethanol, electric cars, nuke plants, etc etc....

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Pops', 'I')nterestingly I think the best idea for dealing with PO has been lurking around for a while.

The answer to PO is exactly what nearing the peak of hydrocarbon production has brought about – the threat of global warming.

Give folks an ultimatum (PO.com, etc.)
Or,
Give them a challenge (reducing Green House Gasses as in Going Green )

Going Green as in the several broadcast TV shows and more than a few network news segments I have seen lately.

Which do you think will achieve the greatest traction?

Don't get me wrong, I ain't moving back to town yet....

[Nicholai]

Someone had asked several pages back if overpopulation is ever discussed in the public school system.

NO! NO! NO! NO!

I just got out of high school 3 months ago and this was never touched on. Instead I read Shakespeare and studied Huckleberry Fin. I told my teacher that in the future "Shakespeare will kindle fires and not minds" and he thought I was a crazy person.

I was at a provincial environmental conference and I asked a panel of Shell representatives if they thought that overpopulation might be one of the root causes of our enormous global warming dilemma. The first to respond mocked the question immediately, "Oops, I have 3 kids, I guess you want to put me in jail now, eh? (all members of the panel laughed as well as the audience)" I then sat back down without an answer to my question. I was laughed off stage and this was just under a year ago. Members of our provincial government were also in attendance and laughed with the rest.

I wish the worst for these people.

[roccman]

It will not be business as usual...therefore:

1. Abandon economic growth model as an objective - "the american way of life is not sustainable...that means it cannot be sustained"...(Tim at WAW2Go)

2. Ban all commercials

3. Re-integration of old folk into society (pensioned independence is a new idea that has not worked)

4. Organic farming - for food only

5. Re-localization of production and living arrangements-think rail and barge...think 300 sq feet per person

6. Mass transit systems instead of individual cars-a stretch given we are out of the gates late, but an "idea"

[muon]

What measures would you suggest for dealing with overpopulation?

Would your solutions be different in an oil world to in a post-oil world?

[roccman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('muon', 'W')hat measures would you suggest for dealing with overpopulation?

Would your solutions be different in an oil world to in a post-oil world?

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nicholai', ' ')Members of our provincial government were also in attendance and laughed with the rest.

I wish the worst for these people.

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('muon', 'W')hat measures would you suggest for dealing with overpopulation?

Would your solutions be different in an oil world to in a post-oil world?

[muon]

I did some reading on population growth and it seems a lot of countries are already lower than the replacement rate now. Without peak oil, I'd suggest looking at the reasons behind this for potential solutions. Maybe in societies where there's a high infant mortality rate people have more children to try to ensure at least one or two will make it to adulthood and reproduce themselves. In the majority of the countries with lower reproductive rates there's better healthcare, infrastructure, communications, I would surmise that leads to lower infant mortality. Then since WW2 we've had it almost the norm in developed countries for women to work outside the home, but not in fields where they can take children, in the countries with higher birth rates, I don't think that is so much the case. Also they seem to be countries with higher use of contraception and good or reasonable education, mandatory up to around age 16. A simplistic way to say this might be to say industrialisation is the 'cause' of the lower population growth in these countries, but even if you remove that term, why can't you use those things as guidelines for what is prodding reproduction overall, not in individuals who should surely still retain choice, but overall numbers?

There's other things too, I think media/propaganda plays a part, promoting the 'ideal' of the 2.2 children family, living in a 2/3 bedroom home, driving a small family car that doens't have enough seats for a dozen children. Adults have more social lives perhaps too, that mean they have different priorities over looking after children from the ages of 15 to 60.

In real life observation I've noticed a tendency for the children who grew up with little hopes for careers, especially in times of higher unemployment (despite that meaning less money to raise the children) to consider having children earlier. Those who wanted to go to university and have careers seemed to be more careful with contraception so they could plan their families more effectively.

Without global warming and peak oil, I would guess that more countries would fall to the replacement rate if they were enabled to work with these concepts. With global warming and peak oil, is it still possible to use these things rather than moving to a model with incentives and disincentives or force? If you believe you have a low chance of your children surviving and reproducing, then incentives or just asking people to have less children aren't as likely to work no matter what society you have because underneath it we're still animals with our DNA governing certain desires and needs. While peak oil might bring higher mortality and infant mortality rates, a lot of the talk here is about the greater likelihood of situations that would surely be more likely to raise the reproduction rates overall as people struggle to propagate their DNA successfully. While we had a much lower population density in the year 1900 say, in the UK, the number of children per women was far more likely to be in the region of five to ten and it took a few generations to go down to what it is now. If you turn society 'backwards' to what it was then, I see no reason why people would actually have less children instead of more as they did then?

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')With global warming and peak oil, is it still possible to use these things rather than moving to a model with incentives and disincentives or force?

[bodigami]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Nicholai', ' ')Members of our provincial government were also in attendance and laughed with the rest.

I wish the worst for these people.

[btu2012]

Zensui,

Does your nym stand for the komuso practice ?

Btu

[Onyered]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '
')PS: Don't wish anyone harm. It makes your mind impure.

[aldente]

Forgot about the topic here, can anyone remind me what the discussion is all about?

[Cabrone]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')eople will not change until they have too

[bodigami]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', 'Z')ensui,

Does your nym stand for the komuso practice ?

Btu