[Ferretlover]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', '"')The people" for the most part are completely unaware of the real issues since they have been sold lies for decades, through the media and the education system. This has been one of the main achievements of what you call "
Btu

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('muon', 'I') have a somewhat crazy idea here for the macro level...

How about rationing via personal ecological (and/or energy) tokens? Each person on earth would be given a ration around 0.7 of a planet (where the WWF calculator approximates around 3 planets currently to the average UK citizen). This wouldn't supplant currency but work alongside it. The tokens would be transferable so that you could swap money for a token inside or outside your country. However if you swap outside your country you pay the value that is set for your country, eg if a token was US$1 then you would pay that to buy a token no matter what country it was from. If a certain product is marked at 10 tokens, then you still have the choice of buying the $50 product and paying 10 "ECOs" (or EEOs) or buying the $5000 version and paying 10 ECOs, so that this still works with capitalism and not moving to a communist economy.

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'O')r one could pursue a plan which does not require action from politicians.


Wouldn't that be easier, or at least faster?

[Ludi]

So you won't pursue a plan which doesn't require action from politicians? Wouldn't action on any scale be more useful than no action at all? If you pursued the plan which doesn't require action by politicans, a plan which can be implemented now, today, you could still work on the politicians to achieve larger goals.


BTW, I'm not talking about individual action here, I'm talking about community action on the world scale, as laid out in Molison's plan.


I suggest you read that plan. Seriously.

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'S')o you won't pursue a plan which doesn't require action from politicians? Wouldn't action on any scale be more useful than no action at all? If you pursued the plan which doesn't require action by politicans, a plan which can be implemented now, today, you could still work on the politicians to achieve larger goals.


BTW, I'm not talking about individual action here, I'm talking about community action on the world scale, as laid out in Molison's plan.


I suggest you read that plan. Seriously.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', 'C')ommunity action on such a scale could hardly be coordinated.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', 'I') don't think that would suffice. Community action on such a scale could hardly be coordinated. Also it would hit the limits set up by the current economic/social system.

Many of the things which need to be done are under government control. Think about public transport, taxation, infrastructure etc.

I do support community action on any scale as better than nothing, I just don't think that it would be sufficient.

Btu

[btu2012]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', ' ')Ok, but it seems as though you might be interested in a plan which already exists and is being implemented now rather than a plan you're working on from scratch. Why reinvent the wheel?

[dohboi]

Hey Ludi,

I like your points, but hasn't Molison himself recently started a permaculture political party in Australia? Or did I dream that (doing a lot of vivid dreaming recently, mostly not pretty).

Really, these things aren't and can't be mutually exclusive. If there aren't already a whole lot of people devoted to volunary reductions in their lifelstyles, there just isn't going to be much of a base of support for making these reductions into law. But if it is only individuals and isolated groups that reduce, Jevon's law tells us that this will simply lower the price of the commodities for the others who will then take up the slack and then some.

So it seems that both are necessary. I just don't want people to think it's easy on any level. Try even influencing your closest friends and relatives to change in more than token ways. Unless they are already primed for a change, they are almost sure to dismiss you, at best.

And of course at this point it looks as though any reductions are more a matter of penance than preserving the climate system, biosphere, species diversity... Tim Flannery now says we've passed the 450 CO2 equivalent ppm level that most scientist have identified as a tipping point. And the Potsdam Institute on Global Climate Change has said the same about the melting of the Arctic--that it is now in essence melting itself (though still pushed yet faster along by our contributrions).

Religions could be part of the solutions, but many are not likely to be. Essentially what is needed is a global humbling before the awesome changes we have initiated in the planetary climate system. I don't think we can jigger the "more for me" economic system to bring about the depth of change at the rate that is called for. What's needed is more like a (quasi-?) religious conversion of the population to a view that what is important about their lives is not how much they consume, but what kind of earth they leave for others.

But this is not likely; mostly what you hear about vocal religious types is their hate for other religious types--as well as for some other groups such as gays. Hey, there's an idea. If we can convert almost the whole world to homosexuality, we can quite rapidly reduce world population. This is of course no more likely to happen than jsut about anything else we can dream up here.

Sorry for the long screed--too much coffee, man.

[Ludi]

I'm not saying political action isn't helpul! I'm saying it isn't necessary to wait for political action to begin the process of change.


One of the big problems I see with so many of the solutions offered here on po.com is that they require political action from on high, action from political "leaders." It's just my point of view that such things are almost as good as no solution at all, since we have to wait for action on high to occur before change can begin. What I'm saying, and what Doly has indicated, is that change can begin now. We don't have to wait for action from on high.


I couldn't find any information about a permaculture political party. Maybe someone else knows about it?

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dohboi', 'A')nd of course at this point it looks as though any reductions are more a matter of penance than preserving the climate system, biosphere, species diversity... Tim Flannery now says we've passed the 450 CO2 equivalent ppm level that most scientist have identified as a tipping point. And the Potsdam Institute on Global Climate Change has said the same about the melting of the Arctic--that it is now in essence melting itself (though still pushed yet faster along by our contributrions).

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('btu2012', 'I') think that governments will have to be involved. What is being doe communally is very good and inspiring but the macro-level measures are still lacking. Do not confuse local government with the global system. I am aware of permaculture and I don't take it lightly.

[dohboi]

Ludi, I don't know if that means you're not going to see this, but here's the link for the Permacuture Peoples Party:

permaculture peoples party

[Ludi]

Thanks for that link!


now if it would just load.....