[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '.')..I don't know the truth as I'm not a geologist, but am always skeptical of those who claim to know for sure, based on an expert's point of view...

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '.')..I don't know the truth as I'm not a geologist, but am always skeptical of those who claim to know for sure, based on an expert's point of view...

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'M')ost people don't understand how often "firmly established theories" turn out to be nothing more than handy working hypotheses.

[coyotl]

I know Engdahl mostly from the interview and the article online. I'm not sure about the article but he sounded relatively sane in the interview..
Biofuels does seem to be a rotten deal between the government and agrobusiness, another way for the corporations to continue their parasitic relationship to society after PO.
They get 50 cent in taxpayer subsidies per barrel I think it was.
A lot of fuel is spent in the process of growing corn/manufacturing ethanol. Also lots of water. Ethanol is 30 % less energy-efficient than gas. In short, lunacy.
The way it is subsidized now it just might go up to 50 % or more of the US corn crop, with untold consequences for the US and the world.
These agrobusiness corporations have been working for years and years to get access to foreign markets, outcompete local agriculture and make countries around the world dependent on them for food.

And now they just switch to biofuels? Talk about Nazis..
Are they playing God? Is this their way of reversing the population growth?

[Ludi]

I dunno, pstarr, that was pretty darn aggressive! Maybe even hubristic.




We're screwed. <<<<<< obligatory doomerism

[Ludi]

No, it doesn't pstarr. Just slamming everyone across the board, even if you don't know what they actually believe or that their ideas may be in flux, isn't helpful. It doesn't help people organise their thoughts or arrive at useful conclusions, it may just make people feel angry, threatened, or hopeless so they leave, learning little, and not prepared to make changes in their lives. Seriously. What good was the slam at permaculture? Who were you even referring to? Me? Shannymara? Or some imaginary permaculturists somewhere? Where's the usefulness or helpfulness is just being a dick? I always read your posts, pstarr, because you're a bright guy and really good at poking at the cornucopians, but I don't see what use you find in jabbing at everyone no matter what they are trying to accomplish. I'm disappointed in you. If you hate yourself, get over it. Neither you nor others are deserving of loathing. Guilt and loathing doesn't solve our problems. Admitting we screwed up royally and moving on to better things can solve our problems if anything can. And we can't know for certain one way or the other unless we try.


*grumble*

please pardon the lecture.

[coyotl]

The Brits actually were pretty disgusting.
They more or less engineered the Irish Famine.
In Bengal, India they shut down (outlawed) a flourishing and advanced textile industry because they feared the competition,
and let the people there starve to death by the tens of thousands.
The region never recovered.
Etc, etc, etc --this is what the British Empire really looked like.
These days it has deteriorated to a mercenary for the empire of the
multinationals though --Blair WAS a poodle and a true follower of Thatcher at the same time.

And I agree, abiocy is dead as a doornail..

[static66]

It seems to me that Engdahl has some valid points and he seems to know alot more than I do about the Abiotic oil theory. Oilbird's asessment is right on though, (as is her likeness under her name)
\The real issue here is the patenting of most of the seed varieties for the production of Bio-fuels and the major corporations that own them.. his new book "Seeds of destruction" should prove to be a good read.
we have been asleep at the switch for the past twenty years while Archer Daniels Midland, Cargill and Monsanto have taken control of our food supply and tranversely our "new" fuel supply as well.... all the makings of a dictatorship happening right before our eyes!

[jbeckton]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'H')e explained how Britain was behind so much of the mess there and forever changed my view of this manipulative, deceitful, power-hungry country.

[coyotl]

Okay, so the corporations patent the seeds --for corn ethanol?
Or what plants?
If so it seems to me they are patenting something that will not work for long anyway.
Corn needs NG for fertilizer, oil, good land, water.
Any long-term viable biofuel would need to be possible to grow on
bad soil, with f.ex sewage for fertilizer, and not to hard to process.
In Sweden they are experimenting with some kind of willow-bush I've read.

[nocar]

coyotle,

indeed there are willow bushes growing for energy harvesting in Sweden. Among all the wheat, canola and barley fields, we occasionally saw a willow field in an agricultural area in Southern Sweden just a few months ago, where we bicycled on vacation.

I do not think it will be used for car fuel though, but for heating houses by district heating. Essentially, it is cheaper form of wood.

We did not talk to anybody about fertilization, but I believe they can use sludge(?) from sewerage treatment. It is not popular to use the sludge for food crops, but energy crops are different. This is an area with very good soils, though. The traditional 'bread basket' of Sweden.

nocar

[BigTex]

I was watching Kung Fu the other night and heard Master Po say:

"Superstition is like a magnet. It pulls you in the direction of your belief."

Abiotic oil is simply superstition based upon a certain set of beliefs.

Rather than loosening up these beliefs, I think this thread is hardening them.

I'll throw in my 2 cents and echo many other comments: does it matter if oil is abiotic or not if the replenishment rate is vastly lower than our extraction rate? If it doesn't matter, why argue about it?

This reminds me of the argument about whether someone who identifies a bad situation is a pessimist. "Don't be so negative" people will say, without realizing that many disasters could have been avoided if more of the "negative" thinking had been taken more seriously earlier in the process.

Are we doomed? I don't know. Are we more likely to be doomed if people continue to muddy the PO water with abiotic oil, alternative energy, and conservation? Absolutely.

Optimism is only useful up to the point that the ties to reality are completely severed; then it's just foolishness masquerading as hope.

[threadbear]

Much of science rests on a bedrock of belief or superstition, as well, Big Tex.

[jbeckton]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'H')e explained how Britain was behind so much of the mess there and forever changed my view of this quote]

If this is news to you, then don't consider yourself well read.

[aldente]

As I stated in the onset, Engdahl was bought since he needs money just as the rest of us. Given that he never was an influencal writer (just a talented one) he sure could not refuse the offer (neither would I have).