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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 02:24:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', 'W')ell, I've been to China recently and I can verify, as gnm as suggested, that all we have done is push our poisonous processes to the other side of the globe. :(


I never disputed that.

My only contention is the notion that all the environmental efforts and laws were a waste of time.

No effect?

Ever read Silent Spring by Rachel Carson?
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 02:31:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'Y')ou really are tedious.... I made a simple statement that environmental laws in the US served to push a lot of industrial pollution and environmental destruction out of the US into the third world and you felt some overwhelming need to argue against that.


Hogwash!

This was what I responded to and you know it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')hink of how bad it would be if we had not fought for cleaner air and water?


All that happened was the pollution got moved... To Mexico, China, Bangladesh etc..


To which you have been arguing that the laws were all talk, it was this movement that made thae air anf water cleaner.

That is ignorant nonsense.
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby gnm » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 11:45:04

The growth in industry required by the continued growth in the US economy since the 60's say...Its required pollution and destruction got moved to China, Mexico et al... And even so pollution and environmental destruction has continued here.

I stand by my point.

Your fanatic defense of US environmental laws makes me believe that you are personally invested in believing that great gains were accomplished. If you need to think that then fine. But I have seen first hand (since the passing of all those) continued destruction and pollution just in my region resulting in areas where I once backpacked, fished etc being destroyed and polluted. And it continues to this day.

Oh and I would appreciate it if you would stop calling me ignorant. You are not qualified to asses that. If you want you could maybe use "biased" instead.

Personally I think your opinions are biased...
8)

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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby gnm » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 12:05:46

Oh and before you start rattling off about how you didn't call me ignorant... Lets use basic logic ok?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', ' ')So yes the laws accomplished precious little.


My... so little you know about what those laws accomplished.



ignorance (plural ignorances)

1. The condition of being uninformed or uneducated. lacking knowledge or information.

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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 01 Aug 2007, 23:57:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'Y')our fanatic defense of US environmental laws makes me believe that you are personally invested in believing that great gains were accomplished.


I happen to know for a fact that there were great gains. I've been on the front lines for over 37 years.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you need to think that then fine. But I have seen first hand (since the passing of all those) continued destruction and pollution just in my region resulting in areas where I once backpacked, fished etc being destroyed and polluted. And it continues to this day.


And how bad would it be today without those laws? Hmmm?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')h and I would appreciate it if you would stop calling me ignorant. You are not qualified to asses that.


Oh, I am quite qualified to call you ignorant, as you have shown a definite "lack of knowledge" (which is what ignorant means) about something I am quite well-versed in.
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby gnm » Thu 02 Aug 2007, 11:02:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I') happen to know for a fact that there were great gains. I've been on the front lines for over 37 years.


Well if you insist on calling a net loss (which I note you have not refuted) a great gain then thats your business. Look more to me like what really happened was the big toxic pile of industrial pollution was merely moved to the other side of the fence so to speak. Which is quite literal if you are in El Paso.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')And how bad would it be today without those laws? Hmmm?


I don't know and neither do you... Its entirely possible that those laws fueled the multinational corporate rape of the third world. Driving them out to a place where they could thrive and pillage without oversight. If people in the 1st world had to see it in their own backyard then things might have been different. But I don't consider saving one acre of wetlands in the US by destroying two somewhere else a gain. Too bad the corporation as an entity had not been dismantled such that those in charge could actually be held responsible. But then thats the root of the problem.

What I do know is that I still have to test for lead, buildings I have worked in still have asbestos in them, pesticides are still being sprayed liberally, the water supply is still contaminated, methyl mercury is still being dumped into the sky, and forests are still being stripped.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Oh, I am quite qualified to call you ignorant, as you have shown a definite "lack of knowledge" (which is what ignorant means) about something I am quite well-versed in.


My what a pompous statement that is... Oh dear me I've been JUDGED and found LACKING by the great Monte! [smilie=adora.gif]


Are you perhaps a mind reader then? You actually know how much I know? The only problem you have with me is I don't share your OPINION that great gains were made. Whether or not I am aware of the details of the legislation or how effective it was or wasn't you don't know. Maybe I'm a glass half full kinda guy or maybe I just look at it from more of a world impact kind of way but its my OPINION that precious little was accomplished.

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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 02 Aug 2007, 12:36:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '
')My what a pompous statement that is... Oh dear me I've been JUDGED and found LACKING by the great Monte! [smilie=adora.gif]
can't we all just get along? No? how about this:

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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 01:08:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'W')ell if you insist on calling a net loss (which I note you have not refuted) a great gain then thats your business. Look more to me like what really happened was the big toxic pile of industrial pollution was merely moved to the other side of the fence so to speak.


What's to refute? If you think that efforts to reduce the net loss through environmental legislation was just "talk" and no gains were made, then you are poorly informed.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re you perhaps a mind reader then? You actually know how much I know? The only problem you have with me is I don't share your OPINION that great gains were made.


It's not an opinion, it is a matter of record.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hether or not I am aware of the details of the legislation or how effective it was or wasn't you don't know.


Sure do. All I have to do is read the content of your posts and compare them to the facts of record.
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 01:36:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', ' ')Well if you insist on calling a net loss (which I note you have not refuted) a great gain then thats your business. Look more to me like what really happened was the big toxic pile of industrial pollution was merely moved to the other side of the fence so to speak.


Oh really? We moved all our cars to the other side of the fence.

A major "gain" of the Clean Air Act has been the near elimination of lead from the atmosphere....85% reduction since 1970.

Most urban centers are now in compliance with the federal standard for sulfur dioxide (SO2). Emissions have been reduced by 20 percent since 1977, even with an increase in coal consumption.

From about 1980 to 1990, the number of vehicle miles driven in the United States increased 24 percent. Despite this increase, emissions of particulate matter dropped by 22 percent, hydrocarbons by 17 percent, while NOx emissions remained relatively stable. In fact, today's new automobiles produce only four percent as much pollution as did their 1970 predecessors.

I can cite stats for all the other laws as well.

You haven't a clue about what you post.
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby seldom_seen » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 01:39:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'I') have seen first hand (since the passing of all those) continued destruction and pollution just in my region resulting in areas where I once backpacked, fished etc being destroyed and polluted. And it continues to this day.

And how bad would it be today without those laws? Hmmm?

I think you're both right.

I'm grateful everyday for the Wilderness Act, the National Park System, NEPA, the Endangered Species Act...

We've decided to piss that all away though. Somewhere, sometime along the way something changed, some threshold was crossed and the soul was sucked out of this country replaced by something different.

If I want to go hiking in the Organ Pipe National Monument today, I'd want to be heavily armed with some heavily armed good friends. What I would find is not a beautiful wild Sonoran desert, but a trash heap.

Organ Pipe is very symbolic to me of how this country is to be used up, drained, spent and chucked to the side of the road like a tin can. Nothing is sacred, nothing is worth defending. It's all about taking. Hungry ghosts.

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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 01:53:17

The Clean Water Act "gains" have been the significant reduction of “point source" pollution and the elimination of the discharge of untreated waste water from municipal and industrial sources. 60 % of American lakes, rivers, and shoreline are now considered fishable/swimable.

I do know how bad it would have been otherwise. We sure as hell didn't ship our shit overseas.

Clean Water Act

"Ignorant" was quite apropos.

Try doing some homework before you go spouting off about subjects you know nothing about.
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 02:55:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'W')e sure as hell didn't ship our shit overseas.
But we did Monte. I surprised that you don't know that. The pollution coming out of China is detectable from outer space.
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby MonteQuest » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 10:22:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'W')e sure as hell didn't ship our shit overseas.
But we did Monte. I surprised that you don't know that. The pollution coming out of China is detectable from outer space.


I"m talking literally. Our shit.
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby dinopello » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 10:40:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'W')e sure as hell didn't ship our shit overseas.
But we did Monte. I surprised that you don't know that. The pollution coming out of China is detectable from outer space.


I"m talking literally. Our shit.


They might pay good money for use as Night Soil.

Also, would give us something to ship back in all those shipping containers that come here filled with plastic crap.
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby gnm » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 11:40:32

Seldom, I hiked those areas 25 years ago.. really sad to see whats become of it.

Kind of like when I was telling my son about the beaver ponds where I went camping 15 years ago around here... When he asked if we could go there I had to tell him "we can't, its all gone..." - yes even the trees... But I suppose those are gains.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'T')he Clean Water Act "gains" have been the significant reduction of “point source" pollution and the elimination of the discharge of untreated waste water from municipal and industrial sources. 60 % of American lakes, rivers, and shoreline are now considered fishable/swimable.


Perhaps you'd like me to send you some nice trout from the _pristine_ headwaters of the Pecos river... :evil: I hope you like mercury.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Try doing some homework before you go spouting off about subjects you know nothing about.


Really, I've heard you do quite a lot of spouting about nuclear issues... Are you a nuclear physicist? I suppose you are anti WIPP/Yucca mountain also. Maybe you could explain to me why you think having nuclear waste sit around in barrels in cities is better than 2000 feet under the NM desert?

You really are a piece of work Monte, Whats the matter, no one allowed to disagree with you? I'm not ignorant. As I said before I just think that most of our industrial pollution (I never said anything about sewage treatment) got shipped out of the US.

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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby azreal60 » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 12:28:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou really are a piece of work Monte, Whats the matter, no one allowed to disagree with you? I'm not ignorant. As I said before I just think that most of our industrial pollution (I never said anything about sewage treatment) got shipped out of the US.


Perhaps some moderation is in order. A simple request, of both you and monte. Monte, might want to consider that calling people ignorant, even if it is correct ( I'm not in a position to judge that) is going to have a negative response and not cause any positive in any case. So how about instead of ignorant, you try uninformed. It states the same thing without the "hey dumbass" component.

On the other hand gnm, come on. Taunting people isn't going to raise the level of the debate. If you believe what you say, that our pollution has been shipped overseas to some degree, then state it and rest your case. The snipping is neither needed nor does it help your case. If anything, it makes me less likely to believe you simply because it causes people to doubt your maturity. As you mention a son, I can't exscuse you simply on age.

The real problem I think is your debating different things. Monte is talking about the situation in the US, your talking about world wide. Your assuming that because the situation is getting worse world wide, the US must be the cause. I'm not sure I agree with your logic, and I defiantely agree that just because other nations haven't equaled the US's environmental laws doesn't mean that they wheren't worth doing.

What we should have done, and what both of you are ignoring, was not allow those businesses to escape. The reason they are allowed to go to countrys which have no pollution laws is because of things like Nafta, globalization. It's here you can lay the current situation to rest, not with Monte's environmental laws.
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby gnm » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 12:48:03

True enough Azreal... I suppose I resorted to taunts because of the annoying haughtiness of his posts. That level of arrogance I find really irritating.

While small "gains" might have been made in some areas in the US on the whole things have gone downhill. I've seen it first hand. And yeah I know the air is slightly better in LA than it was when I was there in the 70's. But I'm not going to tout the wonderful gains because of that. If he doesn't like that too damn bad. We'll just have to agree to disagree. But I'm not going to sit here and be labeled ignorant and uninformed because of that. I just happen to look at it differently I guess. And apparently I'm not the only one.

I'm done with this thread.

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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 15:10:01

MonteQuest is an arrogant prick, but he's right. That's what we need to know. And it is so sad.
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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby gnm » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 15:51:23

I don't want to talk to you no more, you empty headed animal food trough wiper. I fart in your general direction. Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries.

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Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
:lol:

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Re: Steps to take

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Fri 03 Aug 2007, 16:02:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', 'I') fart in your general direction.
That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Monte is right though. It sort of makes you wonder, maybe being an arrogant prick is the only rational response to what is coming down.
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