[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('return1880s', '
')We can logically deduce earth's capacity using the laws of biology and looking centuries ago. Population growth was pratically zero because diseases, famine and wars balanced out the number of offsprings. Biologically, one needs to do the math how much resources we have and how much food can be grown to feed how many people. Famines are already a reality and getting worse.

[mel1962]

Boy, I sure do appreciate the debate and is one of the most interesting subjects regarding the future after peak oil.



I remeber my grandfather who was born in 1911 and would say to me many times "anyone who tells you the good old days were good, is full of crap! These are the good old days! I never liked going outside to the outhouse and would not be alive today without modern medicine."

He is right this maybe as good as it gets, but I think we are all losing sight that there are people who live around us, well at least those in the great lakes area that don't use electricity and have a very comfortable life, but work very very hard!



[align=center]THE AMISH![/align]

An Amish Web Page? How is that Possible!8O

Well anyway, if you want to become Amish now, it will be great training. Go to the FAQ on the web site to find out how to join the an Amish community near you!

[Ludi]

The Amish have chosen a very hard way of life. There are other ways to live a low-energy life which are not so hard.

[mel1962]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')he Amish have chosen a very hard way of life. There are other ways to live a low-energy life which are not so hard.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mel1962', 'T')hey drive horse and buggy, bicycle, farm with manure, use draught animals, candles and gas lights, wood stove, dry their clothes outside in the winter or summer, etc.

[mel1962]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mel1962', 'T')hey drive horse and buggy, bicycle, farm with manure, use draught animals, candles and gas lights, wood stove, dry their clothes outside in the winter or summer, etc.

[TheTurtle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'T')urtle, they aren't talking about if there are other ways to live ...Is it likely folks will transition to a different way fast enough to avoid a die-off? No, of course not. But that is not the same as saying the Earth's carrying capacity is 1 billion and billions must die.

[I_Like_Plants]

Those who have lived that way say the Amish way of life freakin rules.

Author Eric Brende lived a more strict life than most Amish and thought it ruled. Read his book, "Better Off". True, he got a bit of burnout near the end, because he was not socializing as much as Amish do, and little things like not labeling their home canned foods so they felt like they were always eating the same thing. They needed more socialization and more stuff like those home handicrafts people used to do in down times like winter - mending harness and things like that. Maybe a hobby or two, woodcarving for him, needlework for his wife.

He eventually opted out of "minimite" life and went to a city, where he lives without a car, and he and his wife run a bed and breakfast and he runs a pedicab company.

This is an MIT "Best and Brightest" type who opted for this. I'd not be a bit surprised to hear about him re-joining an Amish community in a few years.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mel1962', 'T')heir farming methods are the standard methods used in the 19th century. Even if you plant your own garden, you will have to hoe by hand, weed by hand and probable not have access to fertilizers other than manure, no access to hybrid seeds and no insecticide.

[joewp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('I_Like_Plants', 'T')hose who have lived that way say the Amish way of life freakin rules.

[mel1962]

Ludi, I appreciate your explanation, but I have another question how much food do you store? What happens if you have 3 months of cold weather in Texas? Your method may work on a small scale, but not on larger scale. You need to be able to store enough food to outlast any natural or man made crisis.


I am interested how big is your garden and how many people will it feed?



Thanks for the debate!

[I_Like_Plants]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')What we typically think of as "farming," annual plow agriculture, as practiced by the Amish and many others, is the most labor instensive way to live ever invented. It is true the Amish are very good at this, but that doesn't take away from the fact that it is the most difficult way of obtaining food ever devised by humans.

I do not by any means think the Amish are stupid! I think they cling to their own traditions; they are known for doing so. Their traditions require hard work. They value hard work, which is their choice.

[I_Like_Plants]

I need to add that compared to our own high-stress high-work-hours, extremely individual/alienated life, even the Amish high-labor model looks good and those who have left our corpculture for it, have loved it.

[Pops]

I take it few of you have Amish neighbors.

I don’t pretend to know what is in another’s heart but though theirs’ may be in the right place, they are just as beholden to the teat as all the rest of us.

Sad but true.

[I_Like_Plants]

Pops you make a good point/

Most Amish now are farming less and working longer and longer hours making "handicrafts" in what amount to home factories. They're finding more and more weaselly ways to let technology intrude into their lives.

The group Eric Brende lived with/near were considered very primitive and ultra-conservative by mainstream Amish.

The stuff I've found in books about the Amish mostly dates back to the 1950s or 60s, and everyone lived much more primitively then than now.

[manu]

I believe that it will be sort of like the Amish lifestyle in the colder parts of N.America. If you are in a milder climate on the West coast or in the South it may be somewhat easier. To live in the North you will have to hunt and fish to survive. Except for a few people who already have their trip together. But with global warming coming maybe the winters in the North may become milder. For someone coming from a modern lifestyle to a Native American lifestyle, get real, it will be a harder transition than to an Amish lifestyle. Try dressing a deer, or making a bow by hand.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('manu', 'I') believe that it will be sort of like the Amish lifestyle in the colder parts of N.America. If you are in a milder climate on the West coast or in the South it may be somewhat easier. To live in the North you will have to hunt and fish to survive. Except for a few people who already have their trip together. But with global warming coming maybe the winters in the North may become milder. For someone coming from a modern lifestyle to a Native American lifestyle, get real, it will be a harder transition than to an Amish lifestyle. Try dressing a deer, or making a bow by hand.

[TheTurtle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('manu', ' ')For someone coming from a modern lifestyle to a Native American lifestyle, get real, it will be a harder transition than to an Amish lifestyle. Try dressing a deer, or making a bow by hand.

[manu]

I agree there will be many years of who knows what before the dust settles and whoever is left can live any type of sane life.
Some areas will be affected worse then others.

Turtle: Maybe you will start a new tribe along the Miss. sort of like the Mandan Native Americans. They did'nt move South in the winter like the Dakota and had huts similar to what was popular in Norway at the time of the Vikings. They lived along the Missouri.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TheTurtle', 'I') have dressed game and made bows (and atlatl, which I actually prefer) by hand. I would much rather do that again in the future than toil behind a plow. Of course, I would gather game by trapping rather than hunting ... easier and faster payoff, I think.

YMMV.