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Paradigm Shift; the Ultimate Peak Oil Solution

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 03:27:42

One more thing :-D I wouldn't rely on a Google dictionary. The best bet is where do these words come from? That is of course, if one give's a rat's ass about language.
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Unread postby bart » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 05:11:50

PenultimateManStanding, I'm an ex-English teacher... I feel your pain!

I'm afraid I became hardened to the use of "paradigm" after years of hearing "paradigm shift" in corporate meetings. In my mind, "paradigm shift" means something forced down the throats of unhappy employees, which sounds good at first but turns out to be more work / less money / less efficient.

Coming after that, Ailrickson's use of the word is as fresh and welcome as a spring breeze.

Since you're concerned about language, have you read the parts of George Orwell's 1984 devoted to the new language of Doublespeak? Or his essay "Politics and the English Language" ( http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html ) ? You probably would enjoy them.

Orwell advises:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')list]1 Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print.
2 Never us a long word where a short one will do.
3 If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out.
4 Never use the passive where you can use the active.
5 Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent.
6 Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.


Following rule #5, we should search for an alternative to "paradigm."
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 05:33:26

Ailrickson's use of the word was as fresh as a fart.
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Re: Paradigm Shift; the Ultimate Peak Oil Solution

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 12:36:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ailrickson', ' ')
What do you believe should constitute the paradigm shift in order to either avert the peak, survive the peak, or re-establish a sustainable order post-peak? What are the factors? Should it be simplicity? Should it be denial of any technology (a return to the old idea of Chiristiniaty that all technology is evil? :twisted: )? I am talking about that state of mind, and not technical solutions. The new set of beliefs and style of living that will enable humanity to guide it within a sustainable community within the environment.

For certain, peak oil (along with peak coal, gas and others) will force a new lifestyle. What is at the core of this change of idealogy? What? 1 000 years from now, what will humanity say of peak oil, and the changes it has forced in the human attitude?


A change in the way we think the world works is what is necessary. We have it all backwards. I think this quote from my thread:
World Views:How did we get in this mess? says it quite clearly:

[quote]Newton used Descartes mathematics to describe mechanical motion. It was a world view made for machines, not people. It was a short journey from the cold, inert universe made up of pure dead matter in motion to the world of pure materialism. The answer, it was assumed, was to use the principles of mechanics to rearrange the stuff of nature in a way that best advanced the material self-interest of human beings: The more material well-being we amass, the more ordered the world must be getting. Progress, then, is the amassing or ever greater amounts of material abundance which leads to a more ordered world. Science and technology are the tools to get the job done. Reduced to its simplest abstraction, progress is seen as the process by which the “less orderedâ€
Last edited by MonteQuest on Sun 09 Jan 2005, 12:50:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 12:42:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'P')aradigm is a trendy pseudo scientific word which really just means a model. It doesn't seem mean anything the way you are using it, Ric. Bart, how are we going to to go back to 1805? What do any of us know about life in those times? The people of 1805 had their reality handed down to them from previous generations. What we have had handed to us from previous generations won't help us much to get through what lies ahead and we can't go back to the old ways which we know nothing about.


I don't think we have a choice in the matter.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('montequest', 'O')ur generation faces a unique moment in history. The questions that confront us are: How long will the transition to a renewable energy base take? How will it be accomplished? What will be our role? The transition period will not extend over hundreds of years, as has happened in the past. Our complex and high-energy structure is so fragile, so dependent upon continued inputs of non-renewable energy that a monumental collapse could come at any time. We are headed for a third-world existence that is necessary for our survival. It is up to us whether we choose to get there because we want to, knowing the vast opportunity for a better existence, or whether we try to desperately hang onto our existing world view and, finally, painfully, are forced into the future.

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic2239.html
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 14:21:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bart', '
')
The web definitions of the word (via Google) are in line with with Ailrickson is getting at. For example: $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') a general agreement of belief of how the world works; what could be called ``common sense''.

A set of beliefs that defines the ways in which we think and act. Paradigms categorize information as a way of compressing it; however, information which does not fit the paradigm is usually ignored.


Then again, I may have lost all my judgment about usage, after enduring Corporation-speak for 20 years.
Sure, the web definition is a reflection of how the trendy use of this word has made it into widespread use in a loose manner. I use the American Heritage dictionary. My copy is over 40 years old. It gives the traditional usage only. My point is that you can look at this very thread and see for yourself the damage done to our language by this corruption of words. Ailrickson uses it and asks for replies. Someone replies and Ailrickson say, no, that's not what I meant.. Other people give other replies having other ideas about this fancy word that hardly means anything at all it is so generic. Well, the word isn't generic. It has, or had, a precise meaning. I read Orwell's essays on the use of language. It influenced me more than Strunk and Wagner.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 14:32:42

Strunk and Wanger didn't look right so I went back to the mindless giddy teenager thread to get it from Jack: its Strunk and White. I had that text in one of my College classes. Its good but Orwell is even better on language.
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 14:38:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bart', '
')
The web definitions of the word (via Google) are in line with with Ailrickson is getting at. For example: $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
') a general agreement of belief of how the world works; what could be called ``common sense''.

A set of beliefs that defines the ways in which we think and act. Paradigms categorize information as a way of compressing it; however, information which does not fit the paradigm is usually ignored.


Then again, I may have lost all my judgment about usage, after enduring Corporation-speak for 20 years.
Sure, the web definition is a reflection of how the trendy use of this word has made it into widespread use in a loose manner. I use the American Heritage dictionary. My copy is over 40 years old. It gives the traditional usage only. My point is that you can look at this very thread and see for yourself the damage done to our language by this corruption of words. Ailrickson uses it and asks for replies. Someone replies and Ailrickson say, no, that's not what I meant.. Other people give other replies having other ideas about this fancy word that hardly means anything at all it is so generic. Well, the word isn't generic. It has, or had, a precise meaning. I read Orwell's essays on the use of language. It influenced me more than Strunk and Wagner.


Let's not belabor this point too much and try to stay on topic, Pen. I tend to agree with you that it is being used too loosely here. For a more correct use, I refer to my thread World View: How'd we get in this mess?Do you agree that I have used it correctly there?
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Re: Paradigm Shift; the Ultimate Peak Oil Solution

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 15:11:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Though we are largely unaware of it, much of the way we think, act, and feel can be traced back to the fragments woven together into the historical paradigms of our not too distant past.
A historical paradigm would be a model or framework with which to build an intellectual appraisal of the past. So, no, I don't think your use of the word is meaningful. I don't think I am belaboring this. To me, it is the point of this thread. But to respond to your ideas: I hold the European past accomplishments in high regard. Their science, art, music, culture was wrested out of the muck despite the the freaking laws of thermodynamics. Christ! They were the ones who discovered the freaking laws of thermodynamics. Just because the freaking laws of thermodynamics are finally going to have the last laugh, that doesn't indict the accomplishments they made.
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Re: Paradigm Shift; the Ultimate Peak Oil Solution

Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 15:22:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Though we are largely unaware of it, much of the way we think, act, and feel can be traced back to the fragments woven together into the historical paradigms of our not too distant past.
A historical paradigm would be a model or framework with which to build an intellectual appraisal of the past. So, no, I don't think your use of the word is meaningful. I don't think I am belaboring this. To me, it is the point of this thread. But to respond to your ideas: I hold the European past accomplishments in high regard. Their science, art, music, culture was wrested out of the muck despite the the freaking laws of thermodynamics. Christ! They were the ones who discovered the freaking laws of thermodynamics. Just because the freaking laws of thermodynamics are finally going to have the last laugh, that doesn't indict the accomplishments they made.


It does after 1865 when the laws were discovered. From then on, we knew better, or at least the powers that be did, but we didn't see it as a problem or even thought about it. The result; a world of infinite growth built around supply/demand in a finite world. That is a serious indictment.
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 15:26:45

The Laws of Therrmodynamics will rule every single activity we do from here on out. We have not the energy base to go around them anymore and hold entropy at bay. This is irrefutable, short of some zeropoint or fusion energy which will just accelerate our demise, given our current world view.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 15:40:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')given our current world view.
Thank you for not using that word that peeves me so much. It is a quaint notion that once entropy was discovered in the sciences that the political realities should therefore have been altered to accomodate it. Science has always played second fiddle to politics. If we are to indict anything about the the past it wouldn't be the finer things but rather the coarser realities. I used the word muck for a reason.
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 16:09:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')given our current world view.
Thank you for not using that word that peeves me so much. It is a quaint notion that once entropy was discovered in the sciences that the political realities should therefore have been altered to accomodate it. Science has always played second fiddle to politics. If we are to indict anything about the the past it wouldn't be the finer things but rather the coarser realities. I used the word muck for a reason.


Well, that "quaint notion" is still being largely ignored, even by most people on this site. I find that few have a grasp of it's implications and its imperative for us. I agree about who should be indicted. I muckraked them soundly in my recent book.
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 18:46:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Well, that "quaint notion" is still being largely ignored, even by most people on this site. I find that few have a grasp of it's implications and its imperative for us. I agree about who should be indicted. I muckraked them soundly in my recent book.
What do expect, Monte, to the message the we are all going to die? Do you really think you are safe in Arizona?. Did you get my PM requesting your book?
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 20:36:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '
')Well, that "quaint notion" is still being largely ignored, even by most people on this site. I find that few have a grasp of it's implications and its imperative for us. I agree about who should be indicted. I muckraked them soundly in my recent book.
What do expect, Monte, to the message the we are all going to die? Do you really think you are safe in Arizona?. Did you get my PM requesting your book?


What do you mean "to the message the we are all going to die?"????

Safer in Arizona surrounded by wilderness and abundant fresh water than I was in San Diego, yes. But safe from what? What do you mean? And no, didn't get your PM.
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Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 23:03:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')I agree about who should be indicted. I muckraked them soundly in my recent book.


You wrote a book? Care to give us the link?
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Sun 09 Jan 2005, 23:26:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')I agree about who should be indicted. I muckraked them soundly in my recent book.


You wrote a book? Care to give us the link?


Yes, called Madmen at the Helm. Available free in a PDF format. Send me a pm with your e-mail address and I will send you a copy.

MQ
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Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Mon 10 Jan 2005, 15:47:05

MQ, don't like the condescending tone of "quaint notion"? Well, somebody had to do it. Might as well be me.
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Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 10 Jan 2005, 20:22:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'M')Q, don't like the condescending tone of "quaint notion"? Well, somebody had to do it. Might as well be me.


Well, the idea that the world was round was a quaint notion, too, but somehow, reason prevailed.
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Unread postby mindfarkk » Mon 10 Jan 2005, 20:26:37

MQ you have a pm.

btw... i think you meant "flat" 8O
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