[cynicalheretic]

People are living longer and better than they ever did before.

You propose we do this under voodoo SPG?


I wish you would all stop worry about this kind of crap, because the end of days are coming and you had better go out and have your fun now.




*disclaimer -- I do not believe in God or God's end of days. But the world is dying and if you spend all your time now bitching and whining, then your going to mess out on all of the small pleasures in life.

Peace out

[frankthetank]

How did HEALTH INSURANCE ever get tied to a job? My employer doesn't offer me AUTO INSURANCE, they don't offer me HOUSE INSURANCE? Stupid if you ask me. I say be gone with the hole system and pay cash at the door/or check/or credit card. You'll see prices drop.

[smallpoxgirl]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cynicalheretic', 'P')eople are living longer and better than they ever did before.

[TheTurtle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'I') tell you the truth. One trip to a nursing home and you start to understand why they use to call pneumonia "the old man's friend". No friends for us though. We've got antibiotics and vaccines to keep our friends far far away.

[Denny]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lawnchair', ' ') Hiring companies aren't supposed to ask about your health situation, but they sure find out.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cynicalheretic', 'P')eople are living longer

[Carlhole]

I'm in favor of (1) a socialized portion of healthcare that rigidly focuses on prevention. Costs would have to be rigorously managed by disallowing many treatments, but the emphasis would, again, be on prevention, specifying which services are covered and which are not. No exceptions. Much of the preventive services would be provided by nurse practitioners and certified H/C workers whose re-iimbursements would not be as high as physicians. Very limited compensation for malpractice would also be a feature.

As part of any prevention-oriented socialized medical services program, the message would have to also appear loud and clear that healthy habits and getting plenty of exercise are important to the nation's interests. A re-doubled effort to reduce cigarette smoking, for example, would be in order. A program to increase the use of bike paths and walkways that are human-friendly - not just an afterthought of the car culture - would be in order as well.

Americans have a reputation around the world for being fatter and lazier than Europeans or Asians. It's the car culture and energy-intensive society we've created. Any sensible national healthcare program would make it a primary goal to increase the level of fitness in its citizens. Perhaps some sort of reward system for good health/absence of bad habits could be engineered into it. It would be a big cultural change - but it would be one that is in accordance with many of the values that people here on these boards have expressed.

The next tier would be (2) a mandatory, employee-employer financed private insurance program that, again, rigorously specifies which treatment regimens are included. But the idea would be to provide a fair deal to health care consumers, not providing everything under the sun but providing coverage against many of the risks that ordinary people encounter. Again, limited malpractice compensation.

(3) The third tier would be totally optional private insurance which would allows consumers to access even the most expensive treatments.

In such a system, if someone had failed to provide third-tier level of care for themselves, then they either would have to find charitable help or suffer the tragic consequences. It should not be incumbent upon the healthcare system to completely eliminate all the risks of living.

I think a rigidly cost-controlled socialized portion of healthcare makes sense because we collectively have an interest in everyone's being reasonably healthy. For example, public sanitation systems are a socialized component of our present healthcare system that goes unmentioned for the most part. Without public sanitation, our individual healthcare responsibilities would be much, much more difficult. Also, we collectively want to discourage the various kinds of epidemic diseases that can threaten individuals, despite their best efforts.

However, there is also a personal responsibility for healthcare where each individual must step up to meet the risks that he/she can encounter. So my system would acknowledge both public and private delivery systems.

In any socialized portion of healthcare, costs would have to be rigidly managed because in healthcare, there is always limited supply but unlimited demand.

[lawnchair]

Close, but if part (2) is a standard, regimented plan, why should employers be involved in it? "We've always done it that way" is not enough reason. Small employers need to be free of the hassle of dealing with insurance company paperwork. Employers need to be freed from trying to figure out sneaky, cruel ways to fire employees who get sick (it happens every single day). People need to be freed from indentured servitude through fear and implied threats.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', '
')The next tier would be (2) a mandatory, employee-employer financed private insurance program that, again, rigorously specifies which treatment regimens are included. But the idea would be to provide a fair deal to health care consumers, not providing everything under the sun but providing coverage against many of the risks that ordinary people encounter.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cynicalheretic', 'P')eople are living longer and better than they ever did before.

[smallpoxgirl]

Oregon medicaid put together a medical system a lot like that. They did a survey of everybody on medicaid and asked them what services they wanted coverage for. Then they got together with doctors and came up with a list of priorities and prices. They drew a line on the list and said "Everything below this line is costs too much for too little benefit, and we're not going to cover it." Ended up with a really cool plan. Lots of primary care. Dental coverage and everything.

Then one little girl got sick and was about to die for want of a kidney transplant. Next thing you know, every bleeding heart in the state was on the phone bitching to their senator and the whole thing fell apart. The little girl got her kidney and everybody else lost their dental coverage.

[smallpoxgirl]

So healthcare currently consumes 12% of the GNP in the US. What do you think would be a reasonable number FG?

[I_Like_Plants]

Actually I think someone did the math (because I won't) and discovered about 50% of your tax dollars go to the war.

Very good reason to become a tax rebel, which does not involve anything illegal, it does involve however, living so that you pay very little taxes, making very little and instead growing, gleaning, etc., so you pay very little to the war machine. Needless to say this involves giving up the McMansion and the SUV, you have to give up being a Real American (tm)

I think one thing this thread has shown is that most 'Merkans like their chains. They've been raised since birth to hate Godless Socialism (tm) and it's easy to simply define any system that gives a shit about anyone other than the top ruling class and you get this visceral reaction: That must be Godless Socialism (tm) and the 'Murrikkkan's reasoning apparatus, what there is, just shuts down.

Myself, I only wish I'd known what I know now, why didn't I defect when I was in Cuba in the mid-90s? I just had no perspective.

[smallpoxgirl]

I hear you about the McMansions and SUVs. The thing is our medical system is built on the same model. We're all about spending $300,000 on pet scans and chemo and surgeries in order to live an extra 2 weeks with pancreatic cancer. Changing who pays for it is not going to fix this problem.

You never answered my question. What percentage of our GNP should we be spending on healthcare?

[Graeme]

SMG, I think NZ spends about 6% of GDP. You might be interested in this article:

World's 'best' health care fatally flawed

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne of the most contentious issues of the U.S. presidential campaign will be how to fix what many agree is a malfunctioning health-care system. Adding fuel to the fire is a recent study detailing the shortcomings of the U.S. health-care system compared with those of Australia, Canada, Germany, New Zealand and Britain.

The study, entitled "Mirror, Mirror on the Wall: An International Update on the Comparative Performance of American Health Care," released by the Commonwealth Fund in New York, finds that not only is the U.S. health-care system the most expensive in the world (double that of the next most costly, Canada) but that it comes in dead last in most measures of performance.

Presidential candidates will be asked to justify the costs (15 percent of GDP and estimated to reach 19.6 percent by 2016) of such a disadvantageous system that also fails to insure a sizable portion of the population. The most notable way in which the United States differs from other developed countries is in the absence of universal coverage. But it is also last in terms of access, patient safety, efficiency and equity.

[TheTurtle]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'I') hear you about the McMansions and SUVs. The thing is our medical system is built on the same model. We're all about spending $300,000 on pet scans and chemo and surgeries in order to live an extra 2 weeks with pancreatic cancer. Changing who pays for it is not going to fix this problem.

You never answered my question. What percentage of our GNP should we be spending on healthcare?

[basil_hayden]

Old decrepid people should know when to walk off into the woods and croak. That's my plan, and I think anyone who comes after the baby boomers ought to have one, because when the boomers are done, there will be nothing left.

[lawnchair]

Best health care in the world, indeed (link)