[Plantagenet]

BBC reporter's account of events in Beijing filed on the day of the massacre

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/date ... 496277.stm

[Plantagenet]

The BBC's review of events at the Tiananmen massacre:

"The demonstrations in Tiananmen Square have been described as the greatest challenge to the communist state in China since the 1949 revolution.

They were called to coincide with a visit to the capital by Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev, by students seeking democratic reform.

Troops were used to clear the square despite repeated assurances from Chinese politicians that there would be no violence.

It has been suggested that the Communist leader Deng Xiaoping personally ordered their deployment as a way of shoring up his leadership.

Hundreds, and possibly thousands, of people were killed in the massacre, although it is unlikely a precise number will ever be known."

[eastbay]

Plantagenet, thanks for the impressive gentlemanly response. That speaks volumes.

I think we're all starting to be a bit repetitive regarding TS. The western news reports were mostly exaggerations and nonsense. Just about everyone is in agreement on that point.

[Plantagenet]

Agreed. All the historical evidence and subsequent analyses by Amnesty International etc. show the Chinese PLA massacred hundreds and possibly thousands of peaceful pro-democracy students who demonstrating in Tiananmen Square in 1989. The Chinese communists, like typical little totalitarians, tried to cover up their crimes by censoring press coverage and suppressing the remains of the pro-democracy demonstrators, exiling some and sending many others to forced labour camps.

Their vendetta against the pro-democracy demonstrators continues 18 years later, as some peaceful demonstrators are still in Chinese labour camps. And the censorship campaign continues also, as Ma Lik and others in the Chinese leadership now want to pretend the 1989 massacre didn't even happen.

But it did.

[Plantagenet]

Protest grows against Ma Lik and his denial of the Tiananmen Square massacre are growing in Hong Kong:

"Pressure continues to mount against pro-Beijing National People’s Congress member Ma Lik, who denied that the 1989 Tiananmen Square crackdown was a massacre and said that the Territory’s voters should wait till 2022 for full universal suffrage. His doubts about the feasibility of some of the ways people were killed and how their bodies were disposed outraged many. Mr Ma, for instance, questioned the estimated death toll because of the time it would have taken to cremate them. He also suggested a pig could be thrown in front of a tank to see whether bodies could really be crushed into “minced meat.”

Yesterday, in a strongly worded statement, 127 family members of students and workers killed during the crackdown, said: “Mr Ma’s remarks [. . .] twist and cover up the massacre [and are] a malicious humiliation of the dead and an unrestrained attack on their families. These remarks only show the person who made them has absolutely no humanity left in him and has utterly gone under the baseline of being a human being.”

The group demanded that the National People’s Congress Standing Committee remove him as chairman of the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment and Progress of Hong Kong, a pro-Beijing party in Hong Kong.

The letter by the ‘Tiananmen Mothers’ is but one of several reactions the lawmaker sparked.

An online petition calling on Mr Ma to apologise was organised by social work students at the University of Hong Kong. So far it has gathered nearly 800 signatures.

Members of the Hong Kong Alliance in Support of Patriotic Democratic Movements of China delivered a letter to Mr Ma’s party headquarters, asking him to attend a public forum on May 27 to discuss “The Repression of the Anti-Corruption and Pro-Democracy Student Movement of 1989.”

In a statement, the Union of Hong Kong Catholic Organisations in Support of the Patriotic and Democratic Movement in China also called on Ma to resign, withdraw his remarks and make a public apology. It asked the central government to launch an inquiry.

-------------

The Chinese communists evidently haven't yet been able to totally extinguish belief in the ideals of democracy in Hong Kong.

[eastbay]

Agreed. All the historical evidence and subsequent analyses by Amnesty International etc. show the Chinese PLA 'massacred' not even one of the peaceful pro-democracy students who demonstrating in Tiananmen Square in 1989. The Chinese communist soldiers conducted themselves with historically unprecedented restraint in the face of such a huge crowd, considering the crowd refused their repeated orders to clear the square and go home. They exilied some, but sent many tens of thousands and their families to the USA where they received a free university education and a seemingly endless river of public funding for many years afterwards.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')he western news reports were mostly exaggerations and nonsense. Just about everyone is in agreement on that point.

[eastbay]

I'm getting pretty old, but maybe not old enough to know what 'duckspeak' means. Anyhow, initial (and later) reports of thousands killed in or near the square were then and still are complete nonsense. Just about everyone agrees on that. That's what I was referring to.

My contention is that no protesters were shot in or near the square by soldiers or police. The soldiers should be applauded (applause!!! ) for their unbelievable restraint and professionalism. Protesters were repeatedly ordered by soldiers and authorities to leave the square (just about everyone agrees on this point) and many refused. So they were moved. Big deal. This happens all the time in major cities.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I')'m getting pretty old, but maybe not old enough to know what 'duckspeak' means.

[eastbay]

1984. I read that in high school. Many decades ago. I remember how Orwell decided on the title. I don't remember duckspeak. Typical of my memory these days.

[Plantagenet]

I'm sure Eastbay knows there was a massacre just like the rest of us do. The Chinese government are alone in their attempt to make the Tiananmen massacre victims and their families "disappear."

Some people choose to be on side of the people, and will always be outraged when totalitarian dictators use brutal repression to smash peaceful democracy demonstrations.

Others will automatically choose to be on the side of the totalitarian dictators.

After 50 years of totalitarian repression in eastern Europe, the leftist totalitarians were swept into the dustbin of history after a few months of mostly peaceful pro-democracy demonstrations. The Chinese communists dodged history when they murdered the democracy demonstrators in Tiananmen Square

[Plantagenet]

The Chinese communists were very afraid of the pro-democracy demonstations in 1989.

They are still afraid.

[Plantagenet]

I'm visiting the University of British Columbia in Vancouver.

Many many wealthy (and not so wealthy) Chinese from Hong Kong and other areas of China have been moving to Canada and especially Vancouver.

I was reminded of this discussion when I found a replica of the "goddess of democracy" statue from Tienanmin Square erected here on campus in front of the student union building. The students had recently decorated the statue with flowers and candles to commemorate the massacre anniversary.

They aren't forgetting the massacre, even if the Chinese totalitarians in Beijing want to rewrite history and make it go away.

[jboogy]

My scorecard has Geko and pla-et(you need a shorter name)winning by unanimous decision,although the compassionate side of me thinks it should have been stopped in the third round due to eastbay getting repeatedly knocked down.I gotta hand it to you though eastbay, you kept getting back-up in spite of the relentless barrage of some very strong evidence.

[eastbay]

Yeah, such strong evidence of a massacre:

1. Tanks, soldiers, and cops in the street.
2. Some guy waving his white t-shirt at a line of tanks.
3. Some guy holding a few 7.62 x .38 casings.
4. A picture of a few sheet-covered bodies in a morgue.
5. A few bloody shirts.
6. A pile of bicycles with three guys (dead? run over? who knows!) lying on them.
7. The media relentlessly repeating a phantasmagoric propaganda tale.
8. A statue.
9. A picture of a soldier lighting a cigarette.
10. People giving speeches.

It's beyond me how this 'evidence' can be morphed into a massacre of hundreds or thousands. It's a good thing our justice system doesn't convict on such nonsense and rumor. An accusation of mass murder should require far better evidence than that. Anyone believing a massacre occured at Tienanmen Square holds this belief by faith alone.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I')t's beyond me how this 'evidence' can be morphed into a massacre of hundreds or thousands.