[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I')nteresting too is that the term 'Tiananmen Square Massacre' is repeated as fact, when there is no evidence whatsoever to verify any massacre. It's truly amazing what people will believe.

[eastbay]

Even if the Tiananmen Square event was proved as a non-event (which hasn't happened so far),

No one's saying it was a non-event. A massacre hasn't been proven either.

Geko45,

Two of your many images show what may be casualties. Two out of thousands of images I've seen.

You posted an image of two wounded being carried on a rickshaw. On the second, we see three or four (dead? wounded? posing? impossible to tell) lying down among some bicycles. That's not a massacre. I've already seen those pictures as has most anyone who has spent time looking into this period.

[Geko45]

Eastbay,

You have been provided with photographic evidence, declassified government documents describing the massacre (not just ABC news) and eyewitness accounts. One has to wonder what level of proof (if any) will satisfy you?

A quick search on "Tiananmen Square dead" using Google Images will return dozens of pictures of mangled bodies. Most of which are to gruesome to post here. Here is one I found that clearly shows dead bodies and tanks in Tiananmen Square (and isn't so graphic).

Tanks and Bodies in Tianamen Square

Edit: Rehosted to my webspace to allow linking

And, are these people wounded or just posing?

Warning: Extremely graphic

And these?

Less graphic, 13 dead covered by sheets

[cynicalheretic]

It never happened, it was a jewish conspiracy just like the holocaust.

[Plantagenet]

In George Orwell's book "1984", [s]Eastbay's[/s] Winston Smith's job was to censor past history to make historical events disappear and turn the people in them into "nonpersons."

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'A')fter scolling through a few hundred images I found a grand total of zero images of people who appeared to have been shot or hurt in any way. ... Maybe someone here could explain how this was arranged. The Communist government is quite clever, so maybe they destroyed them all?

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fredrik', 'E')ven if the Tiananmen Square event was proved as a non-event (which hasn't happened so far), the Chinese government is still a far cry from a democratic, human rights respecting entity. Just look at their treatment of Falun Gong members (among others) and support for the genocidal regime in Sudan.

If you deny that, you should sense a soul brotherhood with those right-wingers who still claim that the Iraq invasion was justified pre-emptive action...

The sins of the west don't justify a blind eye for the sins of the east.

[Geko45]

Your original assertion:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'W')ell, I decided to conduct a Google search for images of the square using key words 'Tiananmen', 'Square', and 'massacre' because those are the words commonly used to describe the event.

I found 29,000 image hits. After scrolling through a few hundred images I found a grand total of zero images of people who appeared to have been shot or hurt in any way. I'm sure among the 29,000 images there may be a few, but not on the first dozen or so pages.

[threadbear]

He must be a Communist.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'H')e must be a Communist.

[eastbay]

Geko45,

Thanks for the images. That was the first time I have seen the image of the dozen or so bodies covered by sheets. Does anyone know where that picture was taken? I can't tell. The tank scene appears to be banners and fabric, not bodies.

A crackdown on a protest obviously occurred in Tiananmen Square, but the efforts to call that a 'massacre' are pure propaganda. In fact, the young, nervous, and scared soldiers clearly performed with fantastic restraint towards the demonstrators by clearing the square with minimum bloodshed. It could have easily turned very ugly.

We really must be careful accusing people of conducting a 'massacre' when so far there is no evidence of that. Massacre's are what the US is repeatedly performing or responsible for in Iraq and Afghanistan where many tens of thousands of innocents are killed. Those are massacres.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Geko45', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'H')e must be a Communist.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'W')e really must be careful accusing people of conducting a 'massacre' when so far there is no evidence of that.

[eastbay]

A tremendous mountain of evidence has been presented, you are simply ignoring it.

Three or four pictures of uncertain origin out of tens of thousands of peaceful Tiananmen Square protester images does not constitute a 'mountain of evidence' supporting a 'massacre'. A collection of strikingly 'shrill' personal testimonies (no evidence to support any of them) does not constitute a 'mountain of evidence' either.

The Iraq analogy was used only to demonstrate what a 'massacre' was in case the meaning of the term was somewhat vague. I meant no harm by this. If I stepped out of line with this analogy, I apologize.

Communist??? Well, long ago maybe, but now... a communist sympathizer only. It was part of my early, costly, and mostly thankless tendency to try to make humanity better starting when I was in high school. As a job seeker years ago 'Communist' typed in the blank for, 'personal hobbies and interests' didn't look all that swift on a job application, so I resigned. Heh, especially for the job I was seeking... and got.

[threadbear]

I hope you don't think I was serious when I said you must be a Commuist. My God, that would be almost as bad as calling you a Cornocupian, on this board

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'T')hree or four pictures of uncertain origin out of tens of thousands of peaceful Tiananmen Square protester images does not constitute a 'mountain of evidence' supporting a 'massacre'. A collection of strikingly 'shrill' personal testimonies (no evidence to support any of them) does not constitute a 'mountain of evidence' either.

[eastbay]

First, "three or four pictures" are only what I have posted here. I've already instructed you how to find many more. Even your own search terms turned up a great deal (although you claimed they did not).


I couldn't find them. Maybe you are better at searching through tens of thousands of pictures to find that one elusive 'wet' one than I am.

You've also omitted the 35 declassified U.S. State Department documents detailing the events leading up to, during and after the event. Did you even bother to follow the links I provided?


US State Department documents? Give me a break, please. That was more unsubstantiated nonsense and obvious propaganda. Anyone looking at that would see this, and I bet you do too.

In summary we have substantial photographic evidence, government documents and eyewitness testimony that support the position that the event happened as described. Evidence that this account is inaccurate amounts to absolutely nothing, so I have to ask again what exactly would constitute evidence to you?


In summary we have almost no photographic evidence whatsoever. A zillion pictures and a few are all anyone can display... and most of them are clearly of uncertain origin.

Eyewitness testimony is the lowest level of evidence. Most is garbled nonsense and notoriously unsupported by evidence. Any cop will tell you this.

What would constitute evidence? Simple question. An order to kill protesters would be a start. Soldiers were all over The Square. Everyone agrees on that. Anyone get a picture of one shooting his weapon? I'll save you the trouble of looking because the answer is, 'of course not'.

At Jonestown we had evidence.

[Geko45]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I') couldn't find them. Maybe you are better at searching through tens of thousands of pictures to find that one elusive 'wet' one than I am.

[threadbear]

Not to argue with either Gecko or Eastbay, but I do wonder what would constitute proper evidence when it comes to contentious issues like this? The signal to noise ratio is just a faint whisper. It is really difficult to get to the truth.

I feel the same way about a lot of stuff that is bandied about regarding Castro and Cuba. I just don't know what to believe. I always feel like I'm getting my information about the subject, blasted at me by the dude with the biggest megaphone.