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THE Ford Motor Company Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby Revi » Fri 26 Jan 2007, 09:19:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('midnight-gamer', 'R')evi,

I don't know how far up in Maine you live. Portsmouth Ford, in NH has always treated me very well. I would try that, or maybe it's possible to place a order directly from the manufacuter. If the get the run around, a well written letter to Ford may help. What you are dealing with is sales people, who are getting crunched in a shrinking industry. Profit is many times placed before integrity. :(


I'm going to try a bit further afield. Wiscasset had some that looked good, but I want to buy used now. It is just as hard to find a used one as a new one and they cost a lot less.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby fluffy » Fri 26 Jan 2007, 10:19:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukey', 'F')ord are trying desperately to make a come back. I think they have turned just about everything into cash. Someone made a good point about european cars. Here in uk .. they sell quite a few fuel efficient models. The ford Ka is really popular here. Doubt ford sell anything even remotely similar to that in the states. What people want is average cars, not SUVs or sports cars.


Yes, it's strange. The Focus and Mondeo are excellent cars, and the TDCi diesels are nearly as good as the Peugeot or BMW diesels. Not sure why they don't push them more heavily in the US.. (Although I think there may be issues with diesel quality).
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby firestarter » Fri 26 Jan 2007, 12:28:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')ORD MOTOR CO.
is considering paying bonuses to its managers
despite a year of record losses and large job cuts,
CEO Alan
Mulally said in response to a question. Ford reported a record
loss of $12.7 billion for 2006, but Mulally said the company
could pay a bonus to some managers and top executives to reward
progress in the company's cost-cutting plan. "It is part of our
overall compensation plan to make sure we are paying
competitive wages and benefits, but we have mot made any final
decisions yet," Mulally said, adding that a decision on the
bonuses would be made in the "next couple months." Ford, like
other U.S. automakers, is set to negotiate a new contract with
the United Auto Workers union this year and is expected to seek
deep concessions in those talks from hourly workers.
(Reuters 10:32 AM ET 01/25/2007)
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby strider3700 » Fri 26 Jan 2007, 12:41:51

3 or 4 years ago I wrote a letter to Ford and asked them if they would be bringing their diesel vehicles specifically the focus to the north american market in the future. They told me they expected it to be available within a year or two. I'm still waiting. If it was a diesel quality issue that is now corrected as I believe low sulfur diesel is now available/manditory across the board.

I have also heard that the european focus is different then the north american version. Not sure where I heard that but it would explain the fact that I've heard great things about the one from europe but tons of bad things from NA.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby Pablo2079 » Fri 26 Jan 2007, 13:11:41

Even the "clean" diesel vehicles aren't emissions legal in all 50 states. I believe Mercedes is dealing with that now. They just came out with some new luxury diesel that can be sold in only 45 states. California is one of the states where it isn't legal. With that large of a market being excluded, it may be the reason why Ford is waiting on releasing these here. Plus, they had some kind of "falling out" with Navistar... the producer of some of their truck diesels.

As for the Focus, the US Focus is different than the Euro-Focus. The Euro-Focus "underpinnings" are used for the Volvo S40 here in the states (and probably Canada). I believe the Mazda 3 is also based on the Euro-Focus. The weird thing is that the Euro-Focus is available in Mexico. Really makes one wonder about the reasoning behing that!

The current US Focus is a really good car though. Up until the 2002 model year, they had issues (recalls). 2003 on, they're a really nice car for the money. I believe that some consumer mags have them rated at the top of their segment. Too bad they started out on the wrong foot back when they were a new model.

Wonder what the fuel economy would be like on a diesel/hybrid!?! Not sure if there are technical issues with a design like that, but you'd think the miles per gallon would be incredibly high. Probably incredibly expensive too since diesel powered cars alone are much higher in price than their gas counterparts.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby TreebeardsUncle » Fri 26 Jan 2007, 14:01:26

Well have heard the Found-on-the-Road-Dead and Fix-Or-Repair-Daily car company has a lot of problems (for example, http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/threa ... =Page%3D26 ).

Besides having cars with poor quality, reliability, durability, fuel economy, styling, and even safety, their dealers frequently will not sell the cars to people they want, do not honor their repair aggreements, patch up things just enough to get through warranty after which they break again, and play games with the interest rates to the point of lying. In addition have heard for years that the Found-on-the-Road-Dead car company as well as General Morons have deliberately engineered cars to fail when the warranties run out or within a few years (such as not applying lubricating fixings to the ball joints). In particular the electric car was not continued in production BECAUSE the motors won't break down enough as GM, Ford, and Chrysler managment would like.
In addition Ford would not correct the safety problems in the pinto which frequently led to fatalities because it was cheaper for them to pay settlements for wrongful death suits. [I still think that is is relevant in that it shows a corrupt attitude. I haven't heard about this sort of thing as much from the Japanese.] Similarly the Big 3 pay Congressmen not to increase fuel efficiency (gas mileage) requirments because it is cheaper to bribe the representatives and senators than to produce cars that get better milage. [This is a big part of why Congress and Bush and other presidential administrations will not raise automobile emissions standards.]
As to why the Big 3 push the leviathons here in the states they do so because the production costs per vehicle are fixed but they get the biggest margins per fixed unit production cost by maximizing the size and hence retail price of the vehicle. The big suvs are classified as light trucks as far as emission limits and gas mileage requirments are concerned so they are allowed to pollute more than cars and get lower mileage than cars even though they are used as cars not trucks. Furthermore, business are only allowed to get certain tax write-offs for their work vehicles if they weigh over 3 tons.
Ford (with its $12.7 billion loss in 2006) and General Morons (with its $10.x billion loss in 2005) gambled that the suv craze would continue and that "there would always be people (stupid and foolish enough) to buy their unreliable poorly designed and assmembled big ugly vehicles." They didn't care when people stopped buying their cars because they figured there would always be plenty of other suckers and fools out their whom they could exploit and rip off. However, they didn't count on the sucker supply running out when gas hit $3 + / gallon the last couple years.
They gambled and lost. It would be best if all 3 of these corrupt complacent criminally and idiotically mismanaged domestic automobile companies went out of business permanently {and their managment and sales staff (especially the sales and non-service department personel as well as all their executives) were incarcerated.} [This last statement was and is overly harsh, sweeping, and not well substantiated and I withdraw it. However, believe many of their dealers and managers are deliberately fraudent particularly when it comes to honoring warranties and criminal proceedings should be brought against them.]

Geoff
Last edited by TreebeardsUncle on Sat 27 Jan 2007, 00:09:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby Pablo2079 » Fri 26 Jan 2007, 14:23:36

TBU: I went to that link.... lots of discussion about how the Christian right is boycotting Ford.

Was there a specific page you wanted us to read?

As for Ford being "corrupt", I don't buy that. I also don't think they're "innocent", but I don't agree with the characterization that they are trying to screw the car buying public any more so than other car manufacturers.

Bringing up the Pinto (30 years or so ago) is really not relevant in this discussion. As for your other points, both Toyota and Nissan are both trying to compete with Ford/GM on the truck side of things. Nissan went so far as to build a factory in Texas (in the middle of Ford Truck country) to try and woo away traditional Ford only buyers.

Recent quality studies are putting Ford above the average in quality and above many Japanese manufacturers (JD Power and Consumer Reports).

Toyota has had more recalls this year (a huge one just recently). However, you don't hear people slamming them for their quality issues. You also don't hear a lot about their oil sludge issues or silent head gasket recalls.

It seems like a lot of consumers concentrate on the perception of quality. One place that I believe the domestics could use a lot of work in is their dealership network. From what I've seen in this area, Honda dealers treat the customers great from sale thru service. The local Ford, Dodge and GM dealers could learn a lot.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby Revi » Fri 26 Jan 2007, 15:05:43

Fords seem to be ok quality wise, but the smaller vehicles are not available. The dealerships won't sell them. They don't make as much selling sensible cars. They want to sell the behemouths. The profit margin is much higher on the big ones. We won't be able to get small cars from Detroit. They can't change. Let them die. There will be lots of small car makers to take their place. They may even be electric cars. Here's one we're working on:

www.sunnev.com
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby mjdlight » Fri 26 Jan 2007, 16:42:45

Ford may want us to keep buying behemoths, but people are not going to do it with gas prices seemingly fixed forever above $2 a gal. in the US. Look at what's happened to Explorer sales numbers! :? Ford will either evolve to a smaller car portfolio or die the death of a thousand cuts.


"Specifically, she said, Ford hasn't said how it will replace the sales volume and profits generated by the F-Series and the Explorer SUV. Explorer sales plunged to 179,000 last year from a peak of nearly 434,000 in 2002. "How are they going to replace the revenue they've lost from the Explorer?" Madden said."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ ... siness-hed
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby TreebeardsUncle » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 00:04:59

Hi.
I agree with the points you made Pablo. Well, there were a lot of interesting details brought up on that discussion board a few of which I mentioned above.(I had read the first 26 pages at the point I posted here. The first page is
http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/threa ... m=Page%3D1).)
A few posters on the discussion board as well as Revi noted how Ford will not sell many people the cars they want, particularly small cars, but only the behemoths etc. I bought my volvo s40 from a Honda dealer and had fairly good honest discussions with them unlike what many folks have said about Ford and GM dealers etc.
The last lines I mentioned there calling for criminal proceedings against their management were rather excessive and I withdraw them for the most part. However, there is good evidence that they, the dealers, sales stafe, and company higher ups do not honor their agreements particularly warranty repairs, interest rate negotiations etc and in those cases as well as the pinto case criminal penalties should be invoked.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby TreebeardsUncle » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 01:28:27

Someone posted a link to a site noting that the number of suv's sold the last year or so was 255,000 lower than in 2002.

Also noted on this site:

Corporate losses

"Among the biggest losses suffered by U.S. companies are:"

Time Warner: $98.7 billion, 2002

UAL: $21.2 billion, 2005

Ford: $12.7 billion, 2006

GM: $10.6 billion, 2005

Ford: $7.4 billion, 1992

Note, from a nother source, GM lost about 22 billion or so back in 1992 as well.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby perdition79 » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 01:58:39

Hopefully Ford will learn its lesson about giving the people what they want. There isn't a single affordable car from Ford or GM that appeals to me as a driver. The suspensions are soft, the steering feel is numb, the OEM tires are cheap, gripless all-season junk, and the transmission choices, in most cases are nil: it's a 4-speed auto, period. Chrysler/Dodge offers some options, but their vehicles often cost a couple thousand more than those from Ford or GM.

It's no wonder so many people buy Korean or Japanese vehicles these days. If I were too poor to afford my Chrysler, I'd probably buy a Hyundai.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby Quicksilver » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 06:16:28

This is a peak oil site right? Road to the Olduvai Gorge and all that?

The Auto industry is doomed. Ford and GM are in worse shape than the others. GM's debt is $300 billion, Ford's is $250 billion (last time I checked) and the loss making Chrysler will soon be jettisoned by Daimler-Benz. The 'big three' will soon go the way of the dinosaurs.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby cube » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 16:17:17

I think Ford will survive this lose easily. how?

American corporations are very good at managing risk. Quite often at the end of the day if things go bad it's not the corporation that suffers but the "little fools" who were dumb enough or stupid enough to invest in the company in the first place.

There is a reason why corporations have a preference for issuing stocks to raise capital rather then borrowing money from a bank. A bank is not going to let you off the hook just because your business slows down. If you owe them money they will extract a pound of flesh and seize your assets if that's what it takes.

Remember folks "little people" like you and I borrow money from banks. Corporations raise money by issuing stocks. It's called OPM == other people's money --> that's how you get rich :roll:

If Amazon can lose money spectacularily like that and continue to survive I see no reason why Ford can't do the same. :-D
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby Revi » Sun 28 Jan 2007, 18:47:38

Remember that the new CEO of Ford turned Boeing around by producing fuel efficient planes. They are one of the few American success stories in recent years. Maybe he can do the same thing with Ford. I am watching and waiting. We can only hope. Maybe Ford will gamble it all on smaller cars and a few pickups for folks that actually need them. We'll see what happens. They do have the green car plant thing going for them. Maybe they will actually go with their new slogan: Bold Moves. Only time will tell...
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby DarkDawg » Mon 29 Jan 2007, 11:41:31

Here's a a fun link for Ford fans and bashers alike.

Yes, they will evolve as a company, making idiotic decisions like the 2007 Expedition EL (which is basically the new Excursion - weighs so much it doesn't need to report mpg), and people will keep buying them.

But sooner or later, the entire auto industry will need to wake up and start pitching a different tune. The slogans of "bigger" "faster" "more horsepower" "more torqe" "more towing capacity" than the next guy will continue to give way to "more fuel efficient" than the next guy - in order to survive.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby Revi » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 23:46:56

Read it and weep. Ford sales were so bad that Chrysler beat them this month. They have dropped to 4th place. I saw a model-T pickup and was amazed at how small it was. My Ranger dwarfed it. Maybe we should get back to that kind of vehicle. It got 25 mpg and was very useful. It only went 25 mph, but that's all we really need anyway. It was in the planning stages 100 years ago, and hit the assembly line in 1908. Is the Flivver dead? Has ford sung it's swan song? It seems like they don't want to make the common man's truck anymore. I couldn't find it, anyway.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16925346/
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby mekrob » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 23:50:39

25 mpg for a Model T? And just imagine the fact that was 100 years ago when they hadn't even heard of efficiency and it was a chunk of metal. 100 years and our fuel efficiency hasn't changed a bit. Fucking pathetic.
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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby TreebeardsUncle » Fri 02 Feb 2007, 00:35:35

Actually, mileage has gotten wose, down to the mid teens for many pick-ups. Hopefully, Ford, GM, and Chrysler will go out of business and Toyoto, Honda, Nissan, and others will take over so the milage standards will be higher. Perhaps electrical cars will be used. Better yet would be a greater proportion of the transporation sector being supplied with rail, ship, bikes, etc, anything other than the automobile to which 25% to 40% of suburban surface area is dedicated and which consumes more resources per distance traveled than most any other means of transport with the notable exception of planes.

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Re: Ford hit by record $12.7bn losses

Postby dukey » Fri 02 Feb 2007, 00:56:11

i can't see ford lasting another 2 years to be honest
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