[holmes]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PhilBiker', '
')
Plus, the whole world is missing the poing. We're toxifying the world with chemicals and we wonder why cancer rates are going up.

[cador]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PhilBiker', 'Y')ou've all missed what I personally feel is the real issue.

I have no studies and no links or anything go back this belief up except simple observation of the world around me.

There are many factors, but the deep underlying reason medical technology, all medical technology, not jusy Rx drugs, is so expensive is the following: We have reached the point of diminishing returns. Much like with peak oil, we've reached the point where we have to invest huge amounts of effort and massive amounts of money into advancing medical research even a little bit. There will never be another "miracle cure" like the discovery of pennicilin or the Polio vaccene or anything else. We've already found all the "low hanging fruit" in the medical field.

Plus, the whole world is missing the poing. We're toxifying the world with chemicals and we wonder why cancer rates are going up. Instead of researching the new toxicity of the world around us, we're spending umpteen million dollars trying to find a cure for breast cancer.

There will never be a cure for cancer. There will never be a cure for AIDS. There will never be a cure for most things we're working on. When does it end? When does the research into these lost causes end? When do we realize that the medical world has reached the practical end of the line?

[smallpoxgirl]

[quote="Specop_007]Really? Doctors I've talked to who went overseas seem to disagree with your sentiments. Take an operation which cost X dollars, that same one costs Y in Canada and Z in a place such as Iran or Suadi.
And everytime its X > Y > Z

Now why is the SAME THING cheaper in countries with less money? .[/quote]

There are a lot of things that go into how much an operation costs. Most of the cost of an operation is the hospital cost. That's why outpatient surgery centers are popping up all over the place. Hospital costs in this country are outrageous. A simple ER visit sometimes runs into thousands of dollars. That I think is a different and more complex issue from drug costs.

Drug costs are cheaper in other countries because the governments don't just let the drug companies scalp people. Here they can price things by what the market will bear. Perfect example...Paragard IUD. No R&D involved. It's a piece of copper wire wrapped around a plastic T shape. You could build one in your garage. The technology has been around since the 70's. OK...in all fairness somebody did figure out back in the 80's that it was a lot safer if you tied a piece of fishing line to it instead of using a braided string. In Africa it costs $3. In the US it costs almost $500. Ask the rep why, and they will tell you that you are getting 5 years of contraception and that it really isn't all that expensive. Never mind that it cost all of $0.50 to make. You need it. They got it. You pay.

Marketing is a huge outlay. In 1998, drug companies spent $13 billion on marketing and you can bet it's gone way up from there. Bear in mind that this is usually a zero sum game. If you go to the doctor with hypertension, it doesn't really matter to you what brand of anti-hypertensive you get prescribed. It makes a lot of difference though to the Pfizer CEO. So he spends tons of money hiring reps to go try to convince all the docs to use Pfizer drugs. The doc is in a hurry, and his pens says Norvasc on it, so he starts you on Norvasc. Or maybe you say "but I'm poor. I hate having to pay for meds." so he looks in his sample closet and he has some Norvasc. And so you end up on Norvasc at $60 per month, when hydrochlorthiazide at $3 per month would have done just fine. You can bet there's no rep out pushing hydrochlorthiazide. It's too cheap. Nobody can make any money off it.

It's counter intuitive, but if you want to keep your health care costs down, avoid samples like the plague. It works just like street drugs. You may get the first couple of weeks free, but after that you are going to pay pay pay. Your doc will never have samples of the older drugs. The older drugs are cheaper, are better studied, and in most cases are just as effective as the newer ones.

[k_semler]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '.')..Even as early as October and Halloween people are gearing up for Christmas.....

[PhilBiker]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')ctually, it is even earlier. The seasonal section for christmas was set on October 15th at Wal-Mart #1870. I know this, because I had to take part in setting up the section. The ACLU and corporations have succeeded, they have removed Christ out of Christmas. The literal meaning of christmas is the "Mass of Christ" where celebration of the Lord's birth is undertaken. However, due to the corporate giants, government, and ACLU, there is no place for Christ in Christmas. Anymore, Christmas day is only about who recieves the most consumer goods, or how much consumer goods wer bought to "give" to somebody else. I place "give" in quotes because often that gift is only given with the expectation that you will recieve an item of equal or greater value/utilty in return. Christmas should be renamed to "Consumemas", because that is exactly what it has become.

[PenultimateManStanding]

[quote = "Philbiker"]$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')There will never be a cure for cancer. There will never be a cure for AIDS. There will never be a cure for most things we're working on. When does it end? When does the research into these lost causes end? When do we realize that the medical world has reached the practical end of the line?

[Russian_Cowboy]

This actually has more to do with the Tainter's model of civilization development and collapse, but the underlying laws might be similar to those governing peak oil.

The Economist's Article

[MicroHydro]

Big disagree. I used to be in that business. The 'problem' (if there is one) is the regulatory and liability framework. In a unregulated environment, products (especially gene products) would grow exponentially. For example, there are now genes identified that are linked with human longevity. Would you be willing to experiment and inject yourself with those gene products or even risk a gene graft? Many people would give it a go if the governments did not prevent it. True, many products would be unsafe and/or ineffective. In a more risk tolerant society, that would not be a problem. After peak oil, day to day life gets more uncertain. I actually believe that after peak oil, biotech will be unleashed as one of the few things that can be done with low energy use. Besides, if one can't afford to heat the home in the winter, maybe growing some feathers will do the trick.

[Russian_Cowboy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MicroHydro', 'B')ig disagree. I used to be in that business. The 'problem' (if there is one

[sammybolthead]

Good afternoon all! Just made a trip to the doctor for a prescription refill, and then to the pharmacy to pick them up. Made me think of what will happen to necessary medicines in the next 5 to 10 years. I'm looking into how to make my own that I need, but it's slow going.

I've done a search, but can't find any reference to homemade necessities like antiseptic, analgesics, etc that can be made at home. I don't mean "here, chew on this plant" or "have a tea of wildflowers", but more effective things that we may need. Is there a book on how to make your own medicines and what each is good for? I'm not a doctor or pharmacist, so it'd have to be in somewhat layman's terms, but technical enough that things come out right.

I've been reading about previous technologies and there are lots of references to "healers" and their art, but no descriptions or recipes on how to prepare their wares. Also, some of their items seem "questionable" in today's time of enlightenment.

Any info would be greatly helpful!!

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

This subject is way to big and complex to go into here. Certain plants have anti-flamatory, anti-bacterial, anti-fungal properties but you need to know what you want, what you need, and then how to make them (and grow it). This is a huge area.

The whole field is based on prevention rather than cure. If you are eating a well-balanced natural diet you should get lots of stuff in your normal food supply (ie: oregano and ginger, etc) that will help you stay healthy. then if you are prone to bronchitis or colds you can look up the things you are most likely to need.

Unlike the modern medicine the approach of taking a gun to a fist fight, natural medicine seeks to know what the right bablance or amount should be taken in each situation. too much is not a good thing in herbal remedies and that can be difficult for anyone to figure out.

If you are really serious I would start with "The Herb Quarterly" www.herbquarterly.com. I like them because they really know what they are talking about and really pull a lot of good info together about each topic they visit. they also have use info. you can tell they aren't just writing a book for the sake of writing a book, their research is impeccable, and has tons of practical tips etc.

(and you can buy back issues) hope this helps

[Daculling]

Well, you can find all kinds of recipes for meth on the interwebs, but Viagra and the like? Nope. The drug companies are not going to give you the procedure to make these and nothing personal but if you have to ask here your going to be more of a danger to yourself by attempting this. I would stick with the natural stuff (with care) though asprin is easy to make and maybe you could produce a crude antibiotic. Sorry can't be more help, but I think is sounds a bit dangerous.

[Princess]

Good topic, Sammy. In the last year, I've gotten involved in herbalism. That's the "Here, chew this plant; have a tea of wildflowers" school you are trying to avoid. There really isn't a way to avoid it. The pharmaceutical companies have taken over herbalism and created the items we take from folk remedies. The analgesic you take today would have been a cup (or twelve) of willow bark tea 150 years ago. Herbs are gentle and take a bit to work.

If you want to learn more, just start googling herbalism, natural medicine, natural herb recipes, and the like. There are recipes for creams, lotions, tinctures, and such out there. Keep looking for the ones that are helpful for you. It took me a couple of months to find links that were helpful to me. Also try looking in used book stores. I was in one last weekend that had a book on folk remedies written by a real MD. I tried a couple and they work! Keep your eyes open and you'll be surprised at what you find. Good luck!

[sammybolthead]

Princess,

Could you tell me which book it was that you liked? It's not that I'm against herbal medicine, it's that there is no way of knowing what is actually worthwhile out there. There is so much in print saying this and that, and studies that say this and that don't work or do, but in a different way, it's all so confusing. I'm a fairly direct kinda person when it comes to doing stuff and if there was "an authority" on herbal medicines and what worked and how to make it and what to grow for it, etc, that's what I'd like to find.

The other stuff I think I've got a handle on such as homesteading, farming, carpentry, metal working, etc, but herbs and medicines just seem to be a mystery.

Thanks!

[Ludi]

I recommend the book The Green Pharmacy by Jim Duke

here's his plant database http://www.ars-grin.gov/duke/

I also like The Medicinal Garden and The Complete Women's Herbal by Anne McIntyre

[doufus]

Well, it may not be what you want, but there are alternative sources
of antibiotics. e.g. most fish supplies have amoxcyllin and other
major classes of A/Bs. Vets too but you can mail order fish suppliers.
The dosages/kg should be observed that's all.

I was recently somewhere without medical access and found some
just-expired canine ABs (amoxcyllin and clavulanic acid- for humans
we call it Augmentin). Fixed up my infected foot fine.

Sulphur is also a bit of a last resort. It's tolerated pretty well orally
in the right dose and works well on skin related infections. It also
has obvious topical applications.

[Princess]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sammybolthead', 'C')ould you tell me which book it was that you liked?

[zoommair]

Mice Are Key Tool in Quest for New Drugs
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')AR HARBOR, Maine — When it comes to the price of mice, you pay more for defects. A mouse with arthritis runs close to $200; two pairs of epileptic mice can cost 10 times that. You want three blind mice? That'll run you about $250. And for your own custom mouse, with the genetic modification of your choosing, expect to pay as much as $100,000.

Always a mainstay of scientific research, mice have become a critical tool in the quest for new drugs and medical treatments.

It turns out that a mouse's genes are so similar to a person's that with proper manipulation -- either by man or nature -- they can produce an animal with an ailment akin to virtually any human medical condition. Mice with Alzheimer's disease, obesity, diabetes, cancer and countless other ailments are being used to study both the illnesses themselves and potential treatments.

[Dukat_Reloaded]

That was very interesting, thankyou. I did work experience at a research instiution and one of the researches there said "I'll show you what were doing here". He picked up white mouse from the cage and cut open the mouse chest and showed me it's beating heart. I don't know why he had to show me that, but I was impressed that he took the time and resources to kill a mouse just for me.

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

Disease-mongering is putting people at risk, researchers say
Pharmaceutical firms are inventing diseases to sell more drugs, researchers have warned.
Disease-mongering promotes non-existent diseases and exaggerates mild problems to boost profits, the Public Library of Science Medicine reported.

Researchers at Newcastle University in Australia said firms were putting healthy people at risk by medicalising conditions such as menopause.

But the pharmaceutical industry denied it invented diseases.

DISEASE-MONGERING
Restless legs - Prevalence of rare condition exaggerated
Irritable bowel syndrome - Promoted as a serious illness needing therapy, when usually a mild problem
Menopause - Too often medicalised as a disorder when really a normal part of life

Report authors David Henry and Ray Moynihan criticised attempts to convince the public in the US that 43% of women live with sexual dysfunction.

They also said that risk factors like high cholesterol and osteoporosis were being presented as diseases - and rare conditions such as restless leg condition and mild problems of irritable bowel syndrome were exaggerated.

The report said: "Disease-mongering is the selling of sickness that widens the boundaries of illness and grows the markets for those who sell and deliver treatments.

Campaigns

"It is exemplified mostly explicitly by many pharmaceutical industry-funded disease awareness campaigns - more often designed to sell drugs than to illuminate or to inform or educate about the prevention of illness or the maintenance of health."

The researchers called on doctors, patients and support groups to be aware of the marketing tactics of the pharmaceutical industry and for more research into the way in which conditions are presented.

They added: "The motives of health professionals and health advocacy groups may well be the welfare of patients, rather than any direct self-interested financial benefit, but we believe that too often marketers are able to crudely manipulate those motivations.

"Disentangling the different motivations of the different actors in disease-mongering will be a key step towards a better understanding of this phenomenon."

But Richard Ley, of the Association of the British Pharmaceutical Industry, said the research was centred on the US where the drugs industry had much more freedom to promote their products to the public.

"The way you can advertise is much more restricted in the UK so it is wrong to extrapolate it.

"Also, it is not right to say the industry invents diseases, we don't. It is up to doctors to decide what treatment to give people, we can't tell them."