[matt21811]

aflurry,

It is a pleasure to talk with you.

By replying to your post, I came to the realisation that no matter what, we are going to burn all the oil and coal until there is none left. Tinkering (or not) with efficiency to modify demand won't change this much. it might have some bearing on the time scale.

The only thing that could change this is if the whole world gets together and agrees not to polute. We tried this, it was called Kyoto. This US called it governement interference in the free market and didnt agree to it. Maybe next time.

I'm still a big proponent of PHEV's because they do use less oil and energy than normal vehicles, so they will stretch out the oil for a fair bit longer. More importantly, PHEV's increase the economic activity acheived per barrel of oil. This is an important concept if you are a soft landing type person because PHEV's are evidence that the market is adapting and can adapt. Something the doomers say can't and wont happen.

Just recap the rest of it:
I agree with you that arbitrage in the oil and electricity markets will create a meet in the middle price.
Batteries can certainly be recycled better than they are today. I think we'll get better at that just because there will be so many batteries due to the cars and therefor potential pollution that Governement will enforce it better.
I meant to say something like "More efficiency means less CO2 per mile travelled"

[Omnitir]

Early next year General Motors will present a prototype serial hybrid car with the intention of meeting the market demand for greener vehicles. A serial hybrid uses two engines but has only one connected to the drive train. Unlike a conventional hybrid, the serial hybrid is essentially an electric vehicle with a small ICE for recharging the EV battery. This design has many advantages over both conventional hybrid cars and all electric vehicles.

EcoWorld article

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')It is well and good to criticize General Motors for discontinuing the EV-1. But they are back with another green car which is as ahead of its time as the EV-1 once was, and this car is going to attract a much bigger market.

GM’s planned serial hybrid car could be dirt cheap. Theoretically, a car like this could run on lead-acid batteries. Remember, a serial-hybrid car would only need a two-speed transmission, if that, for the electric motor that provides traction, and no transmission at all for the small gas (or diesel) engine that powers the onboard generator. Maintenance would be negligible. If GM used a nickel-metal hydride battery pack, it is likely that their serial-hybrid car will go much further than “20-30 miles” just on previously stored battery power, and the onboard generator engine could be smaller. The people’s car is here.

[WisJim]

They will probably start out with hybrid Hummers and Suburbans, and still not have any fuel efficient vehicles in the line-up to replace the old Geo/Chevy Metro 3 cylinder hatchback.

And then in 5 or 6 years they will expect the government to bail them because they have made 30 years of stupid decisions.

[small_steps]

Maybe these Ecogeek morons should stop with the two engine crap and actually become familiar with what these things are and what they are not.

On second thought:
"A detail of some interest regarding GM’s bold and groundbreaking new green car initiative..."

sounds more like it's from the GM PR department...

[FireJack]

It would be nice if they ran buses with this kind of technology. Greatly increasing the use of public transportation along with a huge decrease in the energy usage and a small amound of fuel could go a lot further. Of course there is more money in everyone driving the own individual suv's. As long as this idea of infinite economic growth continues we are doomed to extinction. Just another species the planet will shrug off.

[IslandCrow]

I would give this a look IF it was significantly cheaper than current hybrids.

I would like to change from my current car, but with occasion work trips of 700+ km/day (and no car rental firms where I live), that puts most EV out of the running. Also the Pirus is far too expensive (with the high taxes here it is about half the price I paid for my house!)

[Frank]

I don't understand GM's falling into this 2-motor trap. Sounds like they're desparately trying to get onboard with new technology and appear engaged. General opinion is that it's not very efficient to use an ICE as a range-extender via battery charging: the best way to use a heat engine for propulsion is to use the energy directly by connecting it to the driving wheels. If one of their goals is to lower CAFE penalties this approach could help as a smaller gas engine could be used but it would be far from optimal.

[Frank]

I should add that ANYTHING that uses an electric motor is good in my opinion and I'm happy that GM is getting alternatives to the marketplace. I just don't understand why a company with GM's resources doesn't do it better.

[Tanada]

This is the system GM has used for decades building diesel locomotives so for once they are actually building something that might be useful based on what they know, instead of playing follow the leader. These will definatly work for large vehicles like busses and panal trucks, not so sure about passenger cars though.

[JonathanR]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Frank', 'I') don't understand GM's falling into this 2-motor trap. Sounds like they're desparately trying to get onboard with new technology and appear engaged. General opinion is that it's not very efficient to use an ICE as a range-extender via battery charging: the best way to use a heat engine for propulsion is to use the energy directly by connecting it to the driving wheels. If one of their goals is to lower CAFE penalties this approach could help as a smaller gas engine could be used but it would be far from optimal.

[JRP3]

Exactly, a smaller engine running at its optimum constant speed to charge up the battery pack would be more efficient.
The way I see it is a shift in priorities of sorts: Conventional setup has a small generator, (alternator), battery, and electric motor, (starter), supporting the ICE, reverse this and you have small ICE supporting larger generator, (alternator), battery, and electric motor. Same basic components just sized more appropriately for efficiency, especially if you make the ICE a diesel.
Until better, CHEAPER batteries are available this may not be a bad way to go.

[Clouseau2]

It seems to work well for buses, 4x claimed improvement in efficiency vs. an average US bus:

etraction buses

[neocone]

Doesn't make sense... it is greenwash as usual.

40-50% of the profits of a car manufacturer come from the maintenance of the ICE crap. The 30-40% remaining come from greatly inflated SUV prices...

Since there can't be any serial SUV anytime soon it doesn't make buisness sense for them to push for a near full EV that would only show how much crap the ICE is and make 100 converts for every driver like the EV1 was...

In the end I suspect GM and Ford will go the way of the Harley Davidson: Highly pricey stuff in small numbers reminiscent of the american glory days of V8 and 1950s utopian suburbia.

They will have .5% of the world market and be somewhat profitable as an image brand, kind of like what Harley are outside of the US, where people have to drive real bikes as a means to get from A to B vs. sunday riders in their 60s and 70s like here.

I personally ride a Ducati like most young guys, and we are drowned by the old farts willing to drop 30k on a POS which is underpowered and with 1940s technology.

Yet it is a proof even as a niche, SUVs will thrive.

[Omnitir]

Great to see that the first few posts didn’t set the precedence and there’s now some intelligent discussion about this idea.

Considering that this vehicle’s ICE will apparently be a fraction of the size of current small car ICE’s and will only run at a single optimum speed, it sounds like this system may not require the complex cooling systems that other ICE’s require. Also considering the car requires no transmission system, and apparently can use older tech lower cost batteries, it stands to reason that this vehicle should be dirt cheap.

To me this approach seems the most logical of all at this point in time. We need vehicles that can act as an eventual transition towards EV’s, and a hyper efficient and dirt cheap serial hybrid design could be the way to make that happen.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('neocone', '
')Doesn't make sense... it is greenwash as usual.

40-50% of the profits of a car manufacturer come from the maintenance of the ICE crap. The 30-40% remaining come from greatly inflated SUV prices...

Since there can't be any serial SUV anytime soon it doesn't make buisness sense for them to push for a near full EV that would only show how much crap the ICE is and make 100 converts for every driver like the EV1 was...

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tanada', 'T')his is the system GM has used for decades building diesel locomotives....

[Slowpoke]

Does GM still have glut with FIAT? That little 1.3 diesel of theirs could make an interesting generator (even in the 70 hp version).

[Frank]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JonathanR', 'T')his is where the general public's understanding of internal combustion engine efficiency falls down. The point to note about an ICE is that its PEAK efficiency may be about 30%, but the time spent operating at that efficiency is miniscule. Often, an ICE is idling, or is throttled and producing only a fraction of the power it is capable of. This means that any efficiency gained by directly coupling the output to the driving wheels (as suggested here) is completely obliterated by the need to operate over a wide speed/load range, most of which is grossly inefficient.

An electric generator/charger can be set to operate continuously at or near its peak efficiency point. Any losses associated with the electric drivetrain are more than compensated.

In concept, the GM system could be mechanically less complex than the Prius.

[gg3]

The earliest hybrid powertrain vehicle I've been able to find was a gasoline/electric tractor trailer combination manufactured in the Northeast US and used for a while by New York City Sanitation for refuse collection. This was being manufactured in 1919. I have the name of the manufacturer written down somewhere.

The serial hybrid concept is highly suitable for DIY jobs; a close friend of mine independently came up with the "pickup truck conversion": take one Ford pickup, replace engine and most of drivetrain with electric motor, fill the rest of the engine compartment with batteries, and put another battery box and a Honda diesel generator in the back. Have a state-of-charge meter on the dashboard and a pushbutton to start up the diesel when needed.

Re. Renault Kangoo "only available in Europe." This is one of the great obscenities of our time: there are plenty of high-efficiency vehicles available elsewhere in the world, but the makers won't sell 'em here or the regulators here won't allow 'em to be imported. I see a need for lawsuits....