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How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby NEOPO » Sun 05 Nov 2006, 17:14:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', 'H')i NeoPo,

Perhaps I am too doom and gloom. It just seems like everyone is trying to put up sandbags around their inanimate possessions, when they should be running to higher ground. I hope that metaphor works.
The thumb in the dyke mentality. Too little too late.

I think those of us who get beyond the shock of whatever limitation we have chosen to believe will ultimately come to the conclusion that something must be done regardless.
They chant no one can know the future right after they tell us the future ;-)


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
I would like to discuss, and think abou,t what might be "sustainable", and realistic.

Can we actually live in a fashion that resembles our current society post oil-age?

Most would say no and I certainly do not plan on having then what I have now.
Thats ok with me - I have been a professional driver of sorts and wish to no longer drive.
A horse and buggy ride to the local village suits me just fine beyond the observation that hopefully no one will have to die for it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
I wonder. My own ideas on the subject are more akin to aboriginal societies. Hunter-gatherer, agrarian. We will have all the knowledge that has built up over the millenia, but how do we actualize that knowledge without energy and resources?

We will have to do so with alot less either way so we can wait and be forced or we can go willingly and maybe get a head start.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
People have described something akin to 19th century life, or some kind of Amish way of things, but even 19th century civilization required lots of energy. Can we realistically scale back to that?

I really don't want to be drowned in an apocalyptic, "we're screwed" circle of despair. Perhaps there is some way to change the course of the river we are floating down, but I can't see it yet.

Here is a good example.
Apocolypse means "to reveal" and thus revelations.
Dont buy the doom because once we believe it is truly hopeless.....then it is.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
And I can hear the falls up around the bend in that river.


and indeed many may go over the falls - some in a barrel and others in cars planes trains and buses yet isnt it time to row for the shore?
Wouldnt any rational mind be preparing and striving toward sustainability?
You must question why anyone who thinks it is truly hopeless would be here besides for the doomer porn ;-)
It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby gampy » Sun 05 Nov 2006, 17:29:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..yet isnt it time to row for the shore?


I am not arguing with you there. I guess the question is...how do we pry the oars from the people who think we can navigate those chasms?

We could jump over the gunwhales, and try to swim, but that water is mighty cold, and swift, and there is no guarantee that we will make to dry land.

I think that's the rub. Even if we manage to gain hold of the oars, the current may be too swift to do anything. I am inclined to take my chances in the frigid current.

There is a big strong guy at the oars right now, and everyone is kind of looking at each other waiting for the first to act.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby ECM » Sun 05 Nov 2006, 18:03:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ECM', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'K')am30en, is correct. If you drive a car you support the war. There is no getting around this fact. It does not matter who you vote for or how much you protest. IF YOU DRIVE A CAR YOU SUPPORT THE WAR.

I for one have given up the car and my support for this disgusting war.


BS.


I don't think it's B.S.
We did not choose to be in this predicament, for sure, but everyone is part of the problem. I don't think you can get around that.

Like it or not, we live in this construct we have built for ourselves.
We all benefit from it. Even if some take more benefit than others, it does not negate the premise, that we all have some responsibility.


While I do not say that we are not all at fault the above premise by Novus is B.S. He exonerates himself while only identifying one specific use of oil. My statement does allow for other reasons of responsibility for the war while his does not given that nearly everything is touched by oil in some way.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby SDC » Sun 05 Nov 2006, 18:27:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?


It's pretty simple, really, I believe that it was a complete tactical faliure. I'm not nessicarily against resource wars persay, just against botching them.
I might be wrong.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby da23 » Sun 05 Nov 2006, 18:40:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SDC', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?


It's pretty simple, really, I believe that it was a complete tactical faliure. I'm not nessicarily against resource wars persay, just against botching them.


Anyone noticed that most of the war cheerleaders can't spell :roll:

kam, don't you think it would be more productive to work for a solution to the problem rather than trying to justify the second 'final solution'.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby AgentR » Sun 05 Nov 2006, 19:10:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dukey', 'i')f america goes to war for oil
and the rest of the world knows this
what will the rest of the world do
sit on it's hands while america takes it all ?


Thats a very binary position, and not supported by reality. There is NOT enough oil for everyone.

There is plenty of oil for the US, Russia, and China; at least for a while.

One of the key policies of Real Politik is making sure there is enough room for each of the major powers. So if we go to war, say over Iran, we have to insure that China's access to Iranian oil is not interefered with.

For Russia's interests, we have to insure that the Euros get stuck paying top dollar/Euro for oil and gas. [sorry guys]. In their particular case, it would be good for the US economy if they used Euros for oil and gas as much as possible; that would aid the rise of the Euro and improve our import/export competitiveness with them.

As long as you keep China and Russia in your calculation as interests that must be protected at all costs, you end up with actions that won't draw you into a major, doomsday war.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby rogerhb » Sun 05 Nov 2006, 21:24:24

I hope people remember that Big Oil was actually very happy with Saddam in situ and trading for oil.

It's politicians who don't like angry petrol starved voters.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby Kfish » Sun 05 Nov 2006, 23:07:03

Two reasons why going to war for oil doesn't make sense within the Peak Oil paradigm:

1. The EREOI ratio is all wrong. Waging a war for oil costs far more energy than will ever be recovered by the victors.

2. Resource wars are a temporary solution. Since oil is a finite resource, the sp(oil)s of war will run out and even the victorious country will have to make the transition to a non-fossil fuel based economy. At this point, the defeated country has had an extra decade or two to deal with the issue and is, in fact, more prepared than the supposed winner.

Resource wars are stop-gap measures that don't work. You know, totally apart from the morality of killing a bunch of people to delay making tough choices.

On driving: I thought about putting a "No Blood for Oil" sticker on my car, but I noticed the absurdity. Now I'm looking for one of those "Burn Fat Not Oil" ones to put on my bike.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby worrier » Mon 06 Nov 2006, 00:35:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i')f america goes to war for oil
and the rest of the world knows this
what will the rest of the world do
sit on it's hands while america takes it all ?


What would we actually be able to do about it? There were massive protests around the world when the US was proposing the war. Made no difference. Do you have any suggestions for what I should do about it?
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby kam30en » Mon 06 Nov 2006, 02:53:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '1'). The EREOI ratio is all wrong. Waging a war for oil costs far more energy than will ever be recovered by the victors.



What did you just pull this statement out of your ass. There are tens of billions of barrels of oil in Iraq/Iran/Saudi. Enough to power our military for a VERY long time. We are fighting monkeys with sticks and stones for f*ck sakes. In a week, we could murder the entire population of Iraq if we wanted to...drop chemical/biological weapons on them. The EROEI is quite high actually...especially if our military was a bit more frugal and ruthless, which it will be post-peak.

And remember this, all the people who talk about peace and understanding, these will be the people rotting in the dirt post peak.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby AgentR » Mon 06 Nov 2006, 03:39:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kam30en', 'T')he EROEI is quite high actually...especially if our military was a bit more frugal and ruthless, which it will be post-peak.


I agree, but its not necessary at this point in time. No reason to be impatient. Not even a Democrat president would give up those permanent bases in Iraq. They'll think of some excuse to sell their base, but keep them they will.

And when push comes to shove, and they have to choose between Frozen Grannies and Greenpeace; they'll count heads, and sink every Rainbow Warrior clone on the planet.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd remember this, all the people who talk about peace and understanding, these will be the people rotting in the dirt post peak.


I don't much pay attention to the ones that just talk about it. The morons that actually try to gut the military on the other hand; they merit eternal vigilance. If you get a Carter'esque guy that wants to talk peace and compromise while building more nukes and ships, its fine. Slimey of course. But fine.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby Kfish » Mon 06 Nov 2006, 22:06:33

The key concept in EREOI is energy recovered.

Iraq may be the source of several billion barrels of oil, but if there have to be soldiers on every street corner to make sure the oil keeps flowing, you're spending a lot more energy than you're getting. The infrastructure required to get the oil out may be susceptible to hit-and-run sabotage (aka Kunstler's "50 pounds of Semtex strapped to a donkey").

Remember how the oil revenue from Iraq was supposed to cover the cost of invading the country in the first place? Now the war budget is in the red to the tune of tens of billions of dollars per year, and Iraq's production figures are (I believe) lower than before the war.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby Lighthouse » Mon 06 Nov 2006, 22:53:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kam30en', 'W')e still need oil even if we powerdown and move towards sustainablity.


True

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kam30en', 'W')e are going to be facing an exponential decline in oil production in the coming years. I'm not sure people understand what that means.


Oh yes they do, but they tend to ignore it like the chain smoker ignores lung cancer...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kam30en', 'O')ur current government has ALOT of bad policies, but being in Iraq, being within driving distance of 75% of the world's remaining oil is not one of them.


Yes I agree, lets go to the ME and take what is ours anyway ... we need it desperately. And at least we have the biggest dicks, uh guns, no no wait - the "bestest" democracy and unlimited respect for property and of course we honour the law ...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kam30en', '.').. And remember this, all the people who talk about peace and understanding, these will be the people rotting in the dirt post peak.


Friendly reminder: Your wars, your guns and your Israeli friends will definitely not save you from rotting. A veggie patch maybe would make it easier ...
Last edited by Lighthouse on Mon 06 Nov 2006, 23:13:01, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby Lighthouse » Mon 06 Nov 2006, 23:10:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kfish', '.').. and Iraq's production figures are (I believe) lower than before the war.


That's perfect. Save our - ahem the Iraqi oil - for when every other source dried out ...
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby max_power29 » Tue 07 Nov 2006, 04:04:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'O')ur current paradigm was a manmade construct.

It was intentional not just a chance happening like "nature".

Is it any surprise that most people cannot see it or look beyond it?

And to those wise enough to know better yet unwilling to let go of this way of life is it any surprise that they suggest it will only change because of collapse?

None at all.......


This is so true.

you can not even begin to try to solve any problems until the private central banks, especially the federal reserve are either shut down or collapse from their own fraud and corruption. Then humanity must never let them be formed again.

Only then can you even begin to try to solve the major world problems.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby max_power29 » Tue 07 Nov 2006, 04:07:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'K')am30en, is correct. If you drive a car you support the war. There is no getting around this fact. It does not matter who you vote for or how much you protest. IF YOU DRIVE A CAR YOU SUPPORT THE WAR.

I for one have given up the car and my support for this disgusting war.


Yeah, and it's not just cars. Whatta ya gonna do, eh?

If anyone is serious about protesting how we came to be in this predicament, you need to go live in the forest and eat twigs and berries.

No one is innocent.

Although that is not to say you should do that. Just trying to get to the truth of it all. So we can move on.


Yeah if you even eat food that you didn't organically grow yourself or bought from another organic food grower within walking distance you support the war. So you probably support the war too novus.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby max_power29 » Tue 07 Nov 2006, 04:17:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kfish', 'T')

On driving: I thought about putting a "No Blood for Oil" sticker on my car, but I noticed the absurdity. Now I'm looking for one of those "Burn Fat Not Oil" ones to put on my bike.


I put 2 stickers on my car, one for the war cheerleaders and one for the religious nutcases. "I SUPPORT MEANINGLESS JINGOISTIC CLICHES" with red white and blue ribbons and stars and "WHAT WOULD JESUS BOMB?" with mushroom cloud and picture of jesus (who in fact was a spread the peace/love hippy type).

Its funny because most sheople dont even understand the former above- like "DUH! whats a jingoistic cliche?"
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby max_power29 » Tue 07 Nov 2006, 04:23:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kam30en', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '1'). The EREOI ratio is all wrong. Waging a war for oil costs far more energy than will ever be recovered by the victors.



What did you just pull this statement out of your ass. There are tens of billions of barrels of oil in Iraq/Iran/Saudi. Enough to power our military for a VERY long time. We are fighting monkeys with sticks and stones for f*ck sakes. In a week, we could murder the entire population of Iraq if we wanted to...drop chemical/biological weapons on them. The EROEI is quite high actually...especially if our military was a bit more frugal and ruthless, which it will be post-peak.

And remember this, all the people who talk about peace and understanding, these will be the people rotting in the dirt post peak.


I usually do not flame people but, c'mon kam30en, you are a fucking idiot.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby Loki » Tue 07 Nov 2006, 04:51:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', 'I') usually do not flame people but, c'mon kam30en, you are a fucking idiot.

This jackass is a Zionist psychopath who's advocated the genocide of Arabs several times on this forum. But like most chickenhawks, I'm 100% positive he's never spent one single day in uniform. Kam, if you're such a big man, why don't you enlist, either in the US military or the Israeli military? Somebody somewhere would be glad to take your worthless ass. You'd made great cannon fodder.
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Re: How can the Peak Oil Aware be Anti-War?

Unread postby kam30en » Tue 07 Nov 2006, 05:30:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he key concept in EREOI is energy recovered.

Iraq may be the source of several billion barrels of oil, but if there have to be soldiers on every street corner to make sure the oil keeps flowing, you're spending a lot more energy than you're getting. The infrastructure required to get the oil out may be susceptible to hit-and-run sabotage (aka Kunstler's "50 pounds of Semtex strapped to a donkey").

Remember how the oil revenue from Iraq was supposed to cover the cost of invading the country in the first place? Now the war budget is in the red to the tune of tens of billions of dollars per year, and Iraq's production figures are (I believe) lower than before the war.




What the hell are you talking about. We get enough oil from the middle east to run our ENTIRE F*CKING CIVILIZATION. Also, I am not just talking about Iraq, I am talking about all the oil that is in the vicinity, including in Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Kuwait. Also, post peak things will be ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. Mass killings and the complete depopulation of the oil regions will be the order of the day. Rebels will not be able to operate when we destroy their farms and deprive them of food and water. When the military takes it's gloves off, there will be no more resistance. Oh, and there is no reason for our troops to even be in Baghdad or other population centers, we only need to be where the oil is. The EROEI will be very high when our military switches to fighting a "TOTAL WAR".
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