[kam30en]

Ok, I have been having trouble wrapping my head around this. Yes, we went to war in Iraq.. Some say it was to prevent terror, to root out WMDs, or to protect Israel, but I say it was more to ensure our access to Middle Eastern Oil, which is 75% of the world's remaining oil I might add. Our leaders are not really saying why we need to stay there. And the clueless public is screaming "NO TO WAR" from the driver's seats of their SUVs. But I expect better from the people on this forum. WE NEED TO BE IN IRAQ TO ENSURE OUT ACCESS TO M.E. OIL. If being in Iraq keeps the good times rolling for a few more months, WHY WOULDN'T YOU BE FOR IT. The only thing I don't like about the war in Iraq is that our leaders don't just tell us why we are really there. Also, for the people who are going to spout off some liberal hippy BS about freedom and human rights, remember this, modern humans are no better than ancient people who fought and defeated their neighbors in wars, because if they didn't, their neighbors would defeat them. And what exactly do people on this forum think will happen post-peak...that Americans will accept the fact that they can't fill up their SUVs. The average american would sooner bathe in the blood and tears of Iraqi children every morning than give up their starbucks, SUVs and Mcmansions.

[PenultimateManStanding]

hey look, NEO, he's still here! why don't you throw one your patented hissy fits and bug off?

Excuse me Kam. To answer your point, our leaders can't tell the truth. At least I don't think they can and they don't think they can. So probably they can't. Just curious, what do you think would happen if BushCo said, "it's the oil, folks, we're there for the oil"?

[dukey]

if america goes to war for oil
and the rest of the world knows this
what will the rest of the world do
sit on it's hands while america takes it all ?

[NEOPO]

It appears that EVIL NEOCON'S AND ZIONISTS are allowed to exist here as well as those who oppose them

I cannot sway this board against them so the best I can do is call them out and never cease doing so.

Zionists and Neocons intertwined like the two snakes of Hermes.

Its good to know who supports this war.
Its good to see them "out" in the light.

the history of war

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '
')Zionists and Neocons intertwined like the two snakes of Hermes.

[NEOPO]

Someone please explain metaphors to this decrepit fool.
Can he be this dense?

Also imagine this - symbols have changed meanings like the swastika and the star of David.
Borrowed, debased and abused to where we are left hating symbols because of what mankind has done with them.

Pathetic much like your repeated attempts to discredit me and Raph or anyone else who does not bow down before your "devil".

[gampy]

Kam does have a point. I feel the same way sort of.

Everyone is running around and asking "Why, oh why are we in Iraq?"

I think it's obvious to not only the media, but the public in general.

Yes, there are people who continue to parrot stupidities like "We are exporting freedom and the American way"....or "Saddam was a bad man and we needed to save the Iraqi's from him."

But they are in the minority I think, although they are quite noisy about it.

I believe the majority of the world's western populations understand the motives behind US foreign policy and are simply accepting, what to them, is the lesser of two evils.

Yeah, people will fret over all this violence and chaos, but as long as their paycheques come in and they have something to spend them on, I don't think people actually care.

Not to say that all of humanity is coldhearted, because there are people out there trying to change their own, and the world's ideas about all this.

It's sad to think about, but from all that I have seen, it seems to be the case.

[NEOPO]

Yes it is the continuance of illusion only and will lead more people away from ideas such as sustainability.

Worst part is I believe this zionists and his neocon buddy know it!

These people act like some of us arent doing the best that we can.
Most people will move toward sustainability incrementally as it is sometimes the only way.

No conscience no remorse...........
"I give a nod out to the walking dead"

[gampy]

Sorry to double post, but I think the problem is that the public discourse has gone off the track. Or was never on the correct track to begin with.

People are spending all this energy on, to my way of thinking, the superficial issues.

I don't think the public debate has gotten to the real nitty gritty yet.

That our "way of life" is unsupportable in the long run.

America's foreign policy in regards to mitigating that fact is short sighted and really not addressing the core issue.

It could be just another manifestation of human nature, writ large, that as the West's plate is being cleaned, we start looking at other's plates to see what's left.

I don't think these issues, (#1 Peak-oil, fossil fuel depletion, and #2
global climate change) will become the number one priority for Americans until they see what the effects are first hand, as opposed to what they see on TV.

It's unfortunate that capitalism, the free market, and globalization became the dominant paradigm. I guess there are a million reasons why we are on this path.

I don't think the paradigm will shift until it's broken. It's a force of nature now, and it will take a force of nature to change it.

Although I will say it's so heartbreaking that the US is taking the path of least resistance by using it's military to prolong the inevitable.

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gampy', '
')I don't think the paradigm will shift until it's broken. It's a force of nature now, and it will take a force of nature to change it.

[NEOPO]

Our current paradigm was a manmade construct.

It was intentional not just a chance happening like "nature".

Is it any surprise that most people cannot see it or look beyond it?

And to those wise enough to know better yet unwilling to let go of this way of life is it any surprise that they suggest it will only change because of collapse?

None at all.......

[kam30en]

We still need oil even if we powerdown and move towards sustainablity. We are going to be facing an exponential decline in oil production in the coming years. I'm not sure people understand what that means. Our current government has ALOT of bad policies, but being in Iraq, being within driving distance of 75% of the world's remaining oil is not one of them.

[Novus]

Kam30en, is correct. If you drive a car you support the war. There is no getting around this fact. It does not matter who you vote for or how much you protest. IF YOU DRIVE A CAR YOU SUPPORT THE WAR.

I for one have given up the car and my support for this disgusting war.

[gampy]

Hi NeoPo,

Perhaps I am too doom and gloom. It just seems like everyone is trying to put up sandbags around their inanimate possessions, when they should be running to higher ground. I hope that metaphor works.
The thumb in the dyke mentality. Too little too late.

I would like to discuss, and think abou,t what might be "sustainable", and realistic.

Can we actually live in a fashion that resembles our current society post oil-age?

I wonder. My own ideas on the subject are more akin to aboriginal societies. Hunter-gatherer, agrarian. We will have all the knowledge that has built up over the millenia, but how do we actualize that knowledge without energy and resources?

People have described something akin to 19th century life, or some kind of Amish way of things, but even 19th century civilization required lots of energy. Can we realistically scale back to that?

I really don't want to be drowned in an apocalyptic, "we're screwed" circle of despair. Perhaps there is some way to change the course of the river we are floating down, but I can't see it yet.

And I can hear the falls up around the bend in that river.

[gampy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'K')am30en, is correct. If you drive a car you support the war. There is no getting around this fact. It does not matter who you vote for or how much you protest. IF YOU DRIVE A CAR YOU SUPPORT THE WAR.

I for one have given up the car and my support for this disgusting war.

[ECM]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'K')am30en, is correct. If you drive a car you support the war. There is no getting around this fact. It does not matter who you vote for or how much you protest. IF YOU DRIVE A CAR YOU SUPPORT THE WAR.

I for one have given up the car and my support for this disgusting war.

[gampy]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ECM', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'K')am30en, is correct. If you drive a car you support the war. There is no getting around this fact. It does not matter who you vote for or how much you protest. IF YOU DRIVE A CAR YOU SUPPORT THE WAR.

I for one have given up the car and my support for this disgusting war.

[rdberg1957]

ECM says:

I will accept conspicuous consumerism and willful waste such as pleasure driving as supporting the war. However, your above statement is absolute garbage.

Maybe not absolute garbage, but a little over the top.

Let's think about the original statement that war will extend our access to oil. 1) Wars suck energy, running out of fuel to run your war machine is bad news; 2) Creating additional enemies by aggressive strategies will likely backfire when we need help from the international community; 3) Any additional oil gained minus that expended in prosecuting a war will only add a few years usage at escalating demands; 4) Wars divert energy from changing the way we live which will give longer- term relief; 5) the American identity is based on believing we're the good guys. Killing people to get the oil in their ground might just mess with our self-image a little bit.

Frankly, expecting wars to help us acquire resources is naive. Although countries try this strategy frequently, empires collapse when they drain their treasuries and create foreign enemies. How much is it worth to us to make enemies out of an entire region? Using military might is costly in many ways: energy, human life, resources of all kinds. You'd better be damn sure that the reason you're going to war is worth the cost and that all other alternatives have been genuinely pursued.

[Ludi]

War is just deflecting our money, time, and attention away from solving our problems and working on powerdown (if that were a goal, which it is not for the bulk of society). I'm not in favor of this wasteful activity, and I'd say I'm moderately "peak oil aware."