[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'T')here's a crazy kind of religiosity, and then there's the sort you espouse. If only the former kind weren't the type that's taking over.

[CrudeAwakening]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')Its also helpful that they are quite dillegent about showing up at the poles.

[nwildmand]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'O')ne of the truly tragic things about the internet - A person can find anything to support his thesis. And Hey ! If someone wrote it on a webpage, then it must be true - right ?

[galacticsurfer]

I was reading somewhere today that a lot of fundamentalist christian types are starting to band together as environmetnally aware people and pressure the conservative politicians to save the earth. I think that this is a positive move in the right direction. I mean I don't care who is right about God and all that, regardless of my own inclinations, but the results count. I have two small kids and I worry a lot about that ice cap melting(our air conditioner for summer months) and Greenland slipping off into the ocean and all that methane bubbling up out of siberian bogs and all the american forests dying from some beetles and the Amazon being ploughed for diesel and soy bean production. Everyone asks how could Easter Island people have been so stupid to cut down the last tree to build some stupid monuments. I think we could ask the same question about ourselves regarding our consume oil and coal to the last drop attitude and the answer to the religious question and our "eternal life" concept lies in our children's future(and their children,etc.) here on this earth. It is obviously too late for the polar bears but maybe we can survive somehow.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('galacticsurfer', 'I') was reading somewhere today that a lot of fundamentalist christian types are starting to band together as environmetnally aware people and pressure the conservative politicians to save the earth. I think that this is a positive move in the right direction.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CrudeAwakening', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')Its also helpful that they are quite dillegent about showing up at the poles.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'W')e'll know if Fundie "environmentalism" is more than window dressing if they start to support a rational approach to the overarching population issue, and birth control.

Of course you know they won't.

[Ibon]

I cannot find in the bible any commandment that states.....Thou shalt not breed beyond the carrying capacity of your environment....
2 thousand years ago there was no issue of overpopulation and thus no scripture to address it. 2 thousand years ago (and ever since) there were competing idealogies and gods fighting for dominance which is not a good scenario for any one group advocating limiting their numbers.

So god works in mysterious ways right? He forbids us to use birth control and leaves us no scripture to deal with living beyond our carrying capacities. In his infinite wisdom he intentionally left out of the bible any moral or righteous guidance in reference to our population. And he is pleased with each christian saved even if that means 10 billion at the expense of the other creatures that he supposedly created?

Any christian talk of sustainability and creation care without addressing birth control is just collective feel good dillusional self indulgence.

The bible can be wrong on what it omits for dealing with modern problems. Take comfort in the many treasures in contains but at least concede that there are modern moral and ethical problems where this 2000 year old book offers little to guide us.

Religion and spirituality are not fixed in stone or in the pages of a book. They require the same forces of evolution as everything else living if they want to evolve and survive.

A good starting point for christians would be to accept with grace and humiliation that their god and faith, although vast and magnificent, are as imperfect as they themselves.

No ecological paradigm will ever be acheived following the scripture of a book written of an age when the human footprint was so lightly treading on the planet.

The greatest moral and ethical challenge to ever confront the human species, our over population and need to limit our growth finds no reference in the bible.

Meditate on this.

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') cannot find in the bible any commandment that states.....Thou shalt not breed beyond the carrying capacity of your environment....
2 thousand years ago there was no issue of overpopulation and thus no scripture to address it. 2 thousand years ago (and ever since) there were competing idealogies and gods fighting for dominance which is not a good scenario for any one group advocating limiting their numbers.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'A')ctually this is untrue - After death entered into the world, the land, not human reproduction, would establish the "Carrying Capacity" of the human race, which it did for 6000 + years.

Gen 3:17-19 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; (18. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; (19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

[clueless]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')oy you are really squeezing drops of eco-wisdom from this verse. If that's the best you can come up with well I guess I have proven my point. Have the humility to admit that there are moral and ethical issues that the bible will not address. Otherwise continue such desparate tarot readings if that makes you happy.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'B')oy you are really squeezing drops of eco-wisdom from this verse. If that's the best you can come up with well I guess I have proven my point. Have the humility to admit that there are moral and ethical issues that the bible will not address. Otherwise continue such desparate tarot readings if that makes you happy.

[clueless]

Wanna be protected in time of famine ?

Psa 37:18-19 Jehovah knows the days of the upright, and their inheritance shall be forever. (19) They shall not be ashamed in the evil time; and in the days of famine they shall be satisfied.

Also: A famine does not neccesarily mean a reduction of food production in the land, it simply means a hunger in the land.

[Ibon]

My point is not to discredit the moral and ethical treasures that you can find in the bible nor the value of faith in one's life. That's fine. Christ very well represented a spiritual sage 2000 years ago in his messages of compassion and the authors of the bible indeed put into verse moral and ethical principals that have survived and find their value even today. For those with faith the alchemy works it's wonders. But even the most ardent athiest or agnostic who knows not the transformational power of faith has to recognize the power of this book in the simple fact that it is still an active meme in our culture. But the lessons therein where all formed in the context of our human culture and where we were at that point of our cultural evolution 2000 years ago. Famine is mentioned clearly in the bible because famine was present. Die off due to overpopulation is not mentioned. I wonder why? Could it be because there was no context for such knowledge amoungst the authors of the bible?

It doesn't take a big leap of faith or logic for that matter to imagine that if humanity suffered the environmental consequences of resource depletion and over population during the time of Christ than we would certainly find the authors of the bible adding that 11th commandment that thou shalt not breed and consume beyond the carrying capacity of their environment. That verse doesn't exisit and the complete absence in the bible of ethical or moral lessons in reference to ecological sustainability is not a criticism of the bible by any means. It is however a criticism of christians today who are biblical literalists and refuse to evolve their religion and spirituality to the moral and ethical emperatives that are required in terms of living along sustainability principals. There are times to let that good book aside and allow that this book or your religion does not have hegemony over ethical and moral teachings.

Bring your christian wisdom into play but leave the hubris at the doorstep that your bible and religion makes you a chosen people and that the bible contains all the information we need to guide us in all questions of ethics and morals.

Scientists constantly recognize that knowledge and wisdom often becomes obsolete and evolves with new discoveries. The bible has proven very resilient and yet wouldn't god and Christ be pleased with man if he had the spiritual maturity to discover moral and ethical emperatives to sustainability where no hint or commandment was given in that great book? Even if this wisdom comes from non christian sources? Even if it would require christians to add other moral and ethical guidelines from outside their faith.

Personally I find modern Christianity a baggage on our culture that hinders more than aids in moral and ethical teachings. It contains like all religions the arrogance inherant in it's teaching of being a chosen people by an invisible man in the sky. Faith has the alchemy to transform you spiritually both in surrendering in prayer to a higher being but faith also pushes the button of every suicide bomber and every George Bush evangelical wacko out there. Religions have been the source of so much death and destruction and wars. And I'm sorry, it is not the evil in man that caused these wars but often the hubris and arrogance of religious faith that is once again raising it's ugly head in the world. I would wish for a world where we would cast aside these archaic memes. But alas, we have to work with what we have and there are so many that need the crutch of this 2000 year old book to make sense of the world. I have the humility to accept this and engage you in your language and paradigm but don't expect me to join. You are fossils and one day christianity will die off. Everything goes extinct eventually.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ibon', 'F')amine is mentioned clearly in the bible because famine was present. Die off due to overpopulation is not mentioned. I wonder why? Could it be because there was no context for such knowledge amoungst the authors of the bible?

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'D')o we respond to the best of our ability and in a compassionate way, or do we simply try to make the problem go away by throwing food or death at the problem.

[Ibon]

Let's take the Philippines as an example. In 1986 Ferdinand Marcos was eliminated in a people power revolution ending his 14 year dictatorship. Corazon Aquino came to power and a major power broker in that revolution was Cardinal Sin, a catholic bishop.

The Marcos regime did have one legacy to it's credit. It had a very well financed family planning agenda that reached into many small poor commiunities. This was instantly discontinued when Aquino became president with the help of her "spiritual advisor" Cardinal Sin.

If you take a look at the red book of species extinctions the Philippines is close to the top of the list with 90 million people living in a geographical area smaller than many states in the USA. The country needs to export workers to prevent social chaos. here

And where was the strongest spiritual force in the country. Sitting there cynically breeding more catholics. Like I said, MORALLY BANKRUPT......

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'I')f you take a look at the red book of species extinctions the Philippines is close to the top of the list with 90 million people living in a geographical area smaller than many states in the USA. The country needs to export workers to prevent social chaos.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')We read the situation differently. It is the materialistic West that is morally bankrupt.

[Z]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'L')ike I said, MORALLY BANKRUPT......