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We can believe

Discussions related to the physiological and psychological effects of peak oil on our members and future generations.

We can believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 18:29:04

We can believe:

(a) the impossible

(b) the contradictory

(c) the first thing we're told on a new topic

(d) the lies

But we cannot believe that which we are not prepared to believe.
Last edited by rogerhb on Wed 06 Sep 2006, 22:54:07, edited 1 time in total.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: I believe

Unread postby mrflora » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 20:27:50

I have a bridge for sale that I think you might be interested in.
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Re: I believe

Unread postby RonMN » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 20:28:02

I know i'll be flamed for this...but...

I know God is in heaven...I know his plan is being executed as it should be.

I know that does not protect my physical body...so i need to prepare.

Too many people think that since they "believe" they wont have to suffer...this is simply not true. But if we keep our eyes open as best we can...we can avoid the worst of it.
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Re: I believe

Unread postby americandream » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 20:29:36

Message from God......he's in your toe looking up at ya.
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Re: I believe

Unread postby Carlhole » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 20:33:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'I') know i'll be flamed for this...but...

I know God is in heaven...I know his plan is being executed as it should be.

I know that does not protect my physical body...so i need to prepare.

Too many people think that since they "believe" they wont have to suffer...this is simply not true. But if we keep our eyes open as best we can...we can avoid the worst of it.


And how do you know that?
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Re: I believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 20:56:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RonMN', 'I') know his plan is being executed as it should be.


Alas, when asked what exactly that plan is, the answer is "We can't know the mind of god". Which gets us precisely nowhere.
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Re: I believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 20:59:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mrflora', 'I') have a bridge for sale that I think you might be interested in.


What I am trying to get at is we as homo-sapiens can believe a whole load of hokum except that which we are not prepared to believe...

Now that not prepared bit can be

(a) not having the wiring in our brains

(b) not being prepared intellectually or emotionally
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Re: I believe

Unread postby clueless » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 21:37:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')las, when asked what exactly that plan is, the answer is "We can't know the mind of god". Which gets us precisely nowhere.


We can know exactly what God wants us to know - Written in his word...

I beleive it's the Bible, What do you believe ?
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Re: I believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 22:07:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'W')e can know exactly what God wants us to know - Written in his word...


Except, that minor point, that is deliberately avoided, that this chap you refer to, hasn't written anything.
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Re: I believe

Unread postby Heineken » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 22:14:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mrflora', 'I') have a bridge for sale that I think you might be interested in.


What I am trying to get at is we as homo-sapiens can believe a whole load of hokum except that which we are not prepared to believe...

Now that not prepared bit can be

(a) not having the wiring in our brains

(b) not being prepared intellectually or emotionally


Roger, this is an interesting subject, but you need to go back to the opening post and change "I" to "we" or "people." People may read it as though you are referring to yourself personally, which throws them off.

I hope this discussion won't deteriorate into another religious flame-thrower, although religion is certainly part of the puzzle.
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Re: I believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 22:40:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'R')oger, this is an interesting subject, but you need to go back to the opening post and change "I" to "we" or "people." People may read it as though you are referring to yourself personally, which throws them off.


Um, I don't think it would help if I started as

"We, the people, believe in hokum"

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'I') hope this discussion won't deteriorate into another religious flame-thrower, although religion is certainly part of the puzzle.


I was pondering about why so many people dismiss the idea, and then remembered Jay Hanson's claim that very few people will really "get it".

My working model of the brain is as a guessing engine, it does not calculate, it associates and if it can't associate it makes stuff up to fill the blanks.
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Re: I believe

Unread postby Heineken » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 22:46:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', 'I') can believe:

(a) the impossible

(b) the contradictory

(c) the first thing I'm told on a new topic

(d) the lies

But I cannot believe that which I am not prepared to believe.


Instead:

"We can believe:

a . . . d

But we cannot believe that which we are not prepared to believe."

That eliminates the ambiguity and the risk that you unintentionally mislead people into thinking you're referring to yourself instead of people in general. (E.g., what happened to mrflora.)
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Heineken » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 23:01:54

Now I know you're even smarter than I already suspected, Rog.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 12:04:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')xcept, that minor point, that is deliberately avoided, that this chap you refer to, hasn't written anything.


Actually that is untrue, According to the Bible. You simply refuse to believe it.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word is eternal - Comes from the Greek word Logos.

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From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 19:58:58

We should believe in the Bible because the Bible tells us the Bible is true.

8O

Is there any other piece of information you would believe on the same grounds? Probably not. But the Bible gets a pass.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby clueless » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 20:00:55

As I said, you choose not to believe.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby sciencegirl » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 20:26:08

Image
We are the Borg. Resistance is futile. Your culture will adapt to service ours. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 21:23:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('clueless', 'A')ctually that is untrue, According to the Bible. You simply refuse to believe it.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


In this thread I'm not interested in what you actually believe, it's a case of why. For instance here you are using a self referential proof,

"The Bible is true because the Bible says it's true"

In a court of law or a science paper that would deservedly get laughed at, but here we are suspending the laughter. We are trying to fathom why people can believe such contradictory and evidently false things.

As in:-

Two alledgedly intelligent people, one believes in god the other doesn't, so they can't both be right, but we claim they both have their mental faculties intact. Note, this is different to preferring tea rather than coffee.

The same person can believe contradictory things. For example Jesus tells us to both get rid of our swords and get some more. Matt 26:52, Luke 22:36.

Basically, why are we prepared to believe the ludicrous and not prepared to believe in a finite planet etc.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby dinopello » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 22:33:09

I love this quote

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')bjectivity cannot be equated with mental blankness; rather, objectivity resides in recognizing your preferences and then subjecting them to especially harsh scrutiny — and also in a willingness to revise or abandon your theories when the tests fail (as they usually do).

— Stephen Jay Gould


I think a preference to believe in something so incomprehensible that it defies any attempt to understand its nature or prove or disprove its existence doesn't really violate this definition of objectivity. For example, a preference to believe that "something" (that involves "you") continues after death. Its when you continue believe a demonstrably false preference that it does. A key is recognizing that a belief is a preference.
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Re: We can believe

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 07 Sep 2006, 22:59:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('dinopello', 'I') think a preference to believe in something so incomprehensible that it defies any attempt to understand its nature or prove or disprove its existence doesn't really violate this definition of objectivity.


So where the fundamentalist falls down is trying to back up their preference with proof from the real world, eg the collection of stories from some middle eastern tribes plus a couple of letters.
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